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Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#231

Post by Lendal »

thehappypm wrote: post #178
huijzer wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a model Y. I hate almost everything about it. Can you tell more about this? I'm curious.

I absolutely love my Model Y. I do long road trips all the time with it. Best car I’ve owned ever by a mile.

I would recommend a Tesla to anyone, but not the FSD option. Don't waste your money on the FSD option, and you're fine. It's an expensive car that's super cheap to drive. The motors are basically zero maintenance. The battery will likely last the rest of my life. The interior is not too luxurious but decent. The seats are surprisingly durable and comfortable. No reason to sell it ever, unless you just get bored easily.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#232

Post by anon373839 »

edude03 wrote: post #145

I have an S so I'm biased but this feels like a hit piece. Range is of course always going to be an estimate. Marketing is always going to be a battle of who has the bigger number. Having people schedule an appointment to fix their "broken" cars that can only go 470 instead of 500km is of course going to be a waste of time and money. I'm part of a facebook group for tesla owners and literally every day this week ther…

What this article describes, if true, is actionable fraud. I’m not seeing this as a “hit piece.”

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#233

Post by tekla »

brazzledazzle wrote: post #215
tekla wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that any different from a ICE car? How is the car supposed to know how much energy you might be using in the future? Last time I checked, no ICE car has the ability to predict the future.

The distance left in the tank is closer to the Tesla's more accurate estimate because it's constantly adjusting based on both your current gas level as well as your current energy efficiency. It may not accurately convey the distance available at the start of a trip but you're going to know well ahead of time if you're burn rate is too high. If the non-navigation distance estimate in a Tesla is always padded you coul…

> The distance left in the tank is closer to the Tesla's more accurate estimate because it's constantly adjusting based on both your current gas level

How is that different from what Tesla does.

>> as well as your current energy efficiency.

How is that different from what Tesla does.

It shows you current battery percentage, it shows you live on the default screen what its discharge rate is, it also tells you in a side screen what driving habits are consuming extra energy from baseline and percentages from doing things like driving over 70 mpg, air conditioning, altitude changes.

So what exactly is an ICE car doing better.

Last time I checked, my fuel gauge wasn't telling me about the 15% drop in engine efficiency from going to high altitude areas. Funnily enough, the Tesla showed a large increase in energy use due to going up a slop, but otherwise is not affected by the drop in air density.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#234

Post by radlad »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #176
radlad wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've never owned a gas vehicle that met it's EPA range and the Tesla is no different. No one takes EPA MPG * GALLONS of gas and expects it to be a real life estimate of range. Why is this exactly? It's been true - MPG is lower than estimated - of every vehicle I've owned too except for my most recent, a '23 MX-5 (i.e. a sports car, which I tend to drive at higher RPMs and in lower gears.) I'm getting spot-on or a…

Consider yourself lucky. Off the top of my head both Ford and Subaru were subject to lawsuits about vehicles not meeting EPA range expectations. When I had an outback I was very lucky to get 17MPG and the EPA range on the window sticker was 27 which felt really deceptive.

FWIW, one of my vehicles which _does not_ get the EPA estimated is a 2017 Ford Fusion 2.0L AWD. EPA estimate is 20/29/23 (city/highway/combined.)

I normally get 21mpg combined, which is really not so far off. Lots of highway driving usually gets the average up to 23.5mpg. With that worst-case number, across a full tank of gas (16.5 gallons x 2 mpg), I'm shorted about 33 miles, or 8%.

Is that pretty comparable to what Tesla users see? The article claims it's much higher:

> Tesla was fined earlier this year by South Korean regulators who found the cars delivered as little as half their advertised range in cold weather. Another recent study found that three Tesla models averaged 26% below their advertised ranges.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#235

Post by aaronblohowiak »

swader999 wrote: post #190

I rode ebikes for commuting about 15 years ago. Looking at electric cars, I need at least double whatever specs they state for max range. So if I need 400 miles for instance, I need to find a manufacture promising 800. Wind, cold, age of battery, emergency reserve etc all play into it.

You drive 400miles without access to charging?

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#236

Post by tobobo »

dietsche wrote: post #160

As a Tesla owner, I think the source of the confusion is the EPA range displayed in the HUD on the Tesla. We toggled ours to show the battery percentage, which is much more useful to us. We've never owned a gas vehicle that met it's EPA range and the Tesla is no different. No one takes EPA MPG * GALLONS of gas and expects it to be a real life estimate of range. Wind resistance increases EXPONENTIALLY with speed. Driv…

My 2021 Honda CR-V doesn’t get close to EPA MPG but the range calculator is still accurate to within maybe 15%. I’ve tested it a few times driving from Oakland to LA which is right around the full range of the car and it gets pretty close- even with a whole mountain range to drive over north of LA. It doesn’t appear to use EPA MPG for its estimates and it makes for a better experience.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#237

Post by ncphil »

ke88y wrote: post #171
wredue wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our caravan has been a pile of shit, which I’m sure anyone who’s ever had a caravan can attest to. Anyway. We are looking for reliability and imagine my surprise when Kia, of all brands, came out king of generally affordable reliability. Plus their EV reviews reasonably well. A lot has changed in 10 years for vehicles I guess…

I've never heard a good story about a caravan, period! I do sometimes wonder if caravans are particularly crap vehicles for intrinsic reasons, or if targeting families means you have to cut costs which reduces quality (kids are $$$$$$), or if perhaps the driving habits of young families (lots of short trips) are particularly rough on vehicles of that type. Maybe all three conspiring. IDK about Kia, except that they'r…

Depends on the model year. The one we bought in 2003 only needed regular oil changes and a new set of tires every few years. We did have to get a rebuilt transmission just before its warranty ran out, but didn't pay a dime for that ("Not a dime? Really?" Yeah, well, I was a trial lawyer before going into tech). The 2013 is still running and other than normal maintenance the only problems we've had are with the sliding door coming off its track and one of the stow-away seats getting stuck. In both cases YouTube saved the day. Don't get me wrong, I really hate the look of that car. It definitely is not an identity statement. But given the astronomical prices of new (and used) vehicles right now, we're probably going to keep it for a while longer. Here's hoping that changes. Soon.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#238

Post by thehappypm »

Lendal wrote: post #231
thehappypm wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely love my Model Y. I do long road trips all the time with it. Best car I’ve owned ever by a mile.

I would recommend a Tesla to anyone, but not the FSD option. Don't waste your money on the FSD option, and you're fine. It's an expensive car that's super cheap to drive. The motors are basically zero maintenance. The battery will likely last the rest of my life. The interior is not too luxurious but decent. The seats are surprisingly durable and comfortable. No reason to sell it ever, unless you just get bored easil…

I just use AutoSteer and it is pretty awesome. It’s cruise control in its final form!

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#239

Post by steveBK123 »

eatporktoo wrote: post #212

I'm surprised by the reaction to this article. 1. The range is set by the EPA. They are the ones that do the testing and validate the claims. The EPA should fix their range guidelines for EVs. Maybe a summer and winter range would be more appropriate? 2. Tesla should have a better UI for range, but really they should just show the percentage. Acting like it is a conspiracy is a bit extreme. They are just doing EPA Ra…

The EPA tests are poorly implemented, and there are two flavors of tests and the maker chooses which to run. Has to do with the number of "cycles". One of these tests tends to return fairly optimistic results, and is the one Tesla chooses for the EPA to run.

Further, EPA only tests at default settings. Some makers (ahem Tesla) default everything to the most range maximizing settings.

Next, car makers can market UP TO the EPA range, but can also market below. Tesla clearly advertises every mile they can, while the Germans undersell their range. You can see this across the board in the real-world range tests by InsideEVs, etc.

Holistically I think having a single EPA range number is wrong given how different highway & city range is for EVs. Just like ICE cars report highway & city MPG, EVs should report range in these 2 buckets.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#240

Post by gonehome »

ravenstine wrote: post #182
gonehome wrote: post #122

I don’t really get the range complaints at this point, with an ICE vehicle people rarely know their range they just look at a gauge for F to E. With the superchargers, range doesn’t really have a material effect anymore and most of the time the network isn’t necessary anyway. It’s not a real issue.

That's because, even today, gas stations are far more ubiquitous than charging stations. People who own IC cars don't pay that much attention to range because there's rarely a question that they'll find a gas station within their last remaining gallon. With electric, that's a bit of a different story, especially when you're driving a long distance, and to somewhere that's not a major metropolitan city with thousands…

The national coverage of superchargers and built in routing cover the need at this point.

It’s been this way for a couple years, really not something necessary to think about.

Add in at home or destination charging and it’s even less relevant since you need fewer stations near areas where people live.

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