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Rethinking Window Management

blogs.gnome.org

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Re: Rethinking Window Management

#211

Post by eviks »

gorgoiler wrote: post #145

I have been using a tiling WM since ion2, but I’ve used other OS WMs too. It’s hard to take this article seriously when it talks about tiling window manager limitations but fails to mention one big negative for tiling WMs: they assume I want to see the whole window all of the time. Overlapping windows let me put my terminal over the top of my browser. I can overlap and conceal, say, the left nav bar of a documentatio…

> I can overlap and conceal, say, the left nav bar of a documentation website while still letting me see the body of the docs.

Indeed, web pages waste a lot of horizontal space, overlapping is a great option of solving that This also works when you have e.g. a browser and a note app and copy&paste and review etc.

Though it would be nice if WM had a "symbiotic" mode where even bringing your Docs window to the foreground would retain the Terminal window (so it's kind of "always on top" but only within the context of these two applications), it'd be great for easily switching back and forth and not losing info from either window

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#212

Post by accelbred »

phkahler wrote: post #105

I'd love to chat with the gnome guys. They miss so much and I'm not sure why. 1) The WM must remember where my windows were and put them back when reopened. Never mind how X apps took on this responsibility, under Wayland the app should not know its context. It's also not right to put the burden on every app when it could be in the WM to provide consistency and unburden all the other devs. 2) I use a 55" screen where…

> The WM must remember where my windows were and put them back when reopened.

As long as its easily disabled. I used to have to patch firefox so it would open where I opened it and not move itself to where it was closed.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#213

Post by deafpolygon »

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #109
ur-whale wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is everyone doing that needs something else? You omitted to explain what you do for a living. I write code for a living, and what you describe simply doesn't work for me given the many different things I need to look at and refer to in parallel (without having to perform a hard context switch such as moving to another workspace or un-maximizing a window) to be able to cobble together code that works.

Currently I work as a security architect. I have previously worked as a software developer, solution architect and systems administrator. I do like having more than one screen available. Having three is ideal but I mostly just have two. But I just maximise a window on each screen, or have two windows on one of the screens. No advanced window management needed!

> Having three is ideal

I use 3 even at home.

> No advanced window management needed!

This is why I'm still on Windows.

I'm a Linux 'guy' for a long time as a Linux sysadmin/Devops - over 10 yrs. But Windows is just simpler. Window management is top notch on Windows 11, sans tiling. I find that I don't change apps/windows often enough to need tiling. I just set my virtual desktops as is, and switch between them.

Many people spend time setting up Win+# to launch in Linux - I do this too, and the first 10 items (after the Windows icon) are already assigned to Win+1-0 and can be used to switch applications (Shift+Win+# can be used to always launch a new instance, Alt+Win+# can be used to invoke the quick menu which can be navigated via keyboard).

I use PowerToys to setup my windows and then it doesn't need much changing after that and use Virtual Desktop feature to separate my applications by context. The nice thing about Windows Virtual Desktop is that, often, it acts as if the applications aren't even open even if they are open on another desktop. So, launching a browser window or file manager won't kick me back to another desktop. If I want the same instance one very desktop, I can Win+Tab and right-click the preview to pin it to all desktops.

IMO, one of Windows' advantages is consistency. I can sit at someone else's desktop and still be effective, which in my line of work, is quite common for me to do.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#214

Post by deafpolygon »

mulmen wrote: post #91

I understand the desire to make changes, especially from people so close to a project. But as a user it is painful. If I could think of any positive changes in the last 20 years maybe I would have a different reaction. But I can't so I don't. Every time I have attempted to interact with Gnome has been incredibly frustrating. I have an uncomfortable visceral reaction to even seeing a Gnome desktop. But bad design isn'…

> Every time I have attempted to interact with Gnome has been incredibly frustrating.

The changes they made to GNOME 10-15 years ago was enough to get me to abandon Linux and switch to macOS all those years ago. Every time I look at GNOME, I just keep seeing features they removed rather than the ones they added.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#215

Post by pxc »

philsnow wrote: post #188
asoneth wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'zoom' is not equivalent to maximization Interesting, I tried a few windows that I don't normally "zoom" and you are right. I suppose prior to this I only ever attempted to perform this action on browser/document/messaging/media windows that are able to be fully maximized. > there's a big, stupid, slow animation that must play every time you switch between workspaces I wondered how I never noticed this, and it look…

> I wondered how I never noticed this, and it looks like I had Accessibility > Display > Reduce Motion enabled. I use Reduce Motion too, but even then there's an animation (it's a cross-fade instead of a wipe) with the same duration and annoyance, although it is less visually distracting and doesn't try to reinforce the worse-than-useless-to-me spatial ordering. I have to wonder if there's some deep wizardry possible…

> I have to wonder if there's some deep wizardry possible, some hacky function you can call hidden way deep inside Dock.app or Mission Control.app, that will do the workspace switching without any animation.

There's a plist file with animation speeds in it somewhere, and you can reduce the duration of the animations to something extremely low, which is what people with preferences like ours often used to do.

But some time in the last few major releases of macOS, Apple locked that away behind SIP. So to take advantage of it you have to disable some security features (not sure if you have to leave SIP off— you do for some changes but not others), and this may not be possible on a work machine.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#216

Post by helf »

em-bee wrote: post #166
KerrAvon wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single window apps came in with NeXT. I heard a theory early on in the NeXT/Apple merger that it was because the window server buffering was so heavyweight on early hardware that multiple windows just made things too slow. While I personally agree with you, I think you're overestimating the desire of most users to manage multiple window clutter themselves except in very limited contexts.

that sounds very weird to me. NeXT applications very much had multiple windows, and NeXT computers as well as PCs running NeXTStep could handle multiple windows just fine. even the app menu was its own window floating independently from the actual application window. so i really do not see where the claim would come from that multiple windows made things slow.

I used a NeXTstation Turbo Color through 2010 and ran a myriad of windows all day everyday. I have no idea what that parent poster is talking about.

This was a 33mhz 040 with 128mb of ram and NS3.3 and OS4.2.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#217

Post by hulitu »

adrusi wrote: post #139
iamcalledrob wrote: post #93

People generally have pretty good spatial sensibilities, and I feel like modern OS designers seem to forget this. You feel this especially on iPadOS. Physically arranging windows allows for a much more solid multi-tasking experience, and encouraged direct manipulation of content e.g. drag and drop. Transient "palette" or "panel" windows allow for a short term buffer (think a find/replace panel). To me, this is what m…

I really appreciate apps that open new windows where it makes sense, but I'm pretty sure the reason it died out is because people started using too many windows for conventional floating window managers to handle. I'm not sure if many people really felt the burden it would have caused, because the growth in number of windows arguably began with having many webpages open at once, and firefox, and then later internet e…

Not everybody works in a browser. I usually have an Edge, a Teams , an Outlook, a Total Commander and an Excel window always open. Then the working windows depending on the task: doors, CAD tools, etc.

Window management is a solved issue: just give me a fvwm window manager and i'm happy.

But of course, on Windows (see above) no fvwm and Gnome must reinvent the wheel every other year.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#218

Post by vladvasiliu »

dpc_01234 wrote: post #18

Since there's going to be a lot of tiling WM users looking: what's the best way to get tiling WM and all the convenience of a "full blown WM like Gnome": things like Network Manager applet, bluetooth control, audio etc. all just few clicks away.

Depends on what you put in your "full blow WM like Gnome" bag.

In my case, I just have nm-applet for my networking needs, blueman for my BT needs, pasystray for my audio needs, secret manager and polkit started on login, etc.

The only thing I miss from Gnome is that fancy pinentry program that shades the screen, which is replaced with a basic gtk window.

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#219

Post by philsnow »

pxc wrote: post #215
philsnow wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wondered how I never noticed this, and it looks like I had Accessibility > Display > Reduce Motion enabled. I use Reduce Motion too, but even then there's an animation (it's a cross-fade instead of a wipe) with the same duration and annoyance, although it is less visually distracting and doesn't try to reinforce the worse-than-useless-to-me spatial ordering. I have to wonder if there's some deep wizardry possible…

> I have to wonder if there's some deep wizardry possible, some hacky function you can call hidden way deep inside Dock.app or Mission Control.app, that will do the workspace switching without any animation. There's a plist file with animation speeds in it somewhere, and you can reduce the duration of the animations to something extremely low, which is what people with preferences like ours often used to do. But some…

> [disabling SIP, even temporarily,] may not be possible on a work machine

I wouldn't do it on a personal machine either (not that you're advocating that).

Yeah, the "full" installation of yabai [0] requires partially disabling SIP permanently, the reasoning for which is laid out very well in [1].

It seems like the "wizardry" I was hoping for would amount to circumventing some basic security design of post-SIP MacOS, so would either be an exploit or else equivalent to turning off the parts of SIP mentioned in [0].

[0] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai/wiki/Disabling-System-I... [1] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai/issues/798#issuecomment...

Re: Rethinking Window Management

#220

Post by vladvasiliu »

devnullbrain wrote: post #180
asoneth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find switching between workspaces annoying, but not particularly more or less annoying than switching between maximized windows on Windows. So I am curious what you specifically find annoying about treating maximized windows as workspaces. (Also, note that you can hold the Option key and click on the green plus in the upper-left corner you will get the standard Windows maximize behavior, which macOS call…

Swapping between workspaces on Windows is: - very slow (even with animations turned off - very buggy. Windows resize and move themselves.

Bonus points for not being able to move a window from screen 1 on workspace 1 to screen 2 on workspace 2 without first moving to the other screen and same workspace or vice-versa.
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