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The Fall of Stack Overflow

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Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked about this 10 years ago and look at the sarcasm I received in response. https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/142703

What would you think if you clicked on a Wikipedia article about Mozart and instead of the current introduction which says: > Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart[a][b] (27 January 1756 – 5 December 1791) was a prolific and influential composer of the Classical period. Despite his short life, his rapid pace of composition resulted in more than 800 works of virtually every genre of his time. it opened with: > Hello everyone, I stu…

At least Wikipedia has a facility for meta chat.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#692

The problems I’ve noticed with Stack Overflow are a few and hard for me to narrow down but basically: - google used to return really relevant results for SO, and it stopped doing so at some point a while ago - moderation on SO has gotten progressively more horrible. can’t tell you how many times I found the exact, bizarre question I was asking only to see one comment trying to answer it and then a mod aggressively sh…

I just realized how much SO's role has changed for me as a dev. Like most devs, I used to use it as a common reference. However, I realized just now that it's been months since I've looked as SO.

That's not because I was intentionally avoiding it, but a natural side-effect of it becoming much less useful, largely because of the thing you're citing here. The quality of answers has fallen quite a lot, and SO seems to actively avoid hard questions (and if I'm searching a site like SO, it's because I have a hard question.)

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#693

The problems I’ve noticed with Stack Overflow are a few and hard for me to narrow down but basically: - google used to return really relevant results for SO, and it stopped doing so at some point a while ago - moderation on SO has gotten progressively more horrible. can’t tell you how many times I found the exact, bizarre question I was asking only to see one comment trying to answer it and then a mod aggressively sh…

The last 2 reasons are why I stopped to post on SO 10 years ago ... I tried to explain something and some mode was kicking my english and for being "off topic"

SO burried itself

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#694

The problems I’ve noticed with Stack Overflow are a few and hard for me to narrow down but basically: - google used to return really relevant results for SO, and it stopped doing so at some point a while ago - moderation on SO has gotten progressively more horrible. can’t tell you how many times I found the exact, bizarre question I was asking only to see one comment trying to answer it and then a mod aggressively sh…

I responded to a question on SO once where I elaborated on the accepted answer - my solution was more functional as it provided assignment operator override.

Some hot shot user with an absurd amount of badges told me, in a condescending tone, that my solution did not answer the question and linked me to some TOS article or something about staying on topic. This was the first time I had ever answered a question on SO.

My takeaway from the situation is that SO is full of accounts that farm badges/rep. To what end, I do not know - perhaps they reference it on their resume or portfolios.

I called the guy out, seems he has since deleted the comment.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very popular Zalgo answer is a perfect example of this problem [1] The user asks a question that can be answered quite easily, and dozens of people post answers claiming that this is the wrong way to do it and that they should use some other tech to solve the problem. Some people on Stack Overflow care more about showing off how smart they are rather than answering questions, and I think the point system attracts…

> If you parse HTML with regex you are giving in to Them and their blasphemous ways which doom us all to inhuman toil for the One whose Name cannot be expressed in the Basic Multilingual Plane, he comes. Jesus this is cringe

To be fair, that question was written during a period when "how do I parse this html with regular expressions" was asked multiple times per day. And "regular expressions are not a reasonable tool to do that, use a parser" was the correct response to 99% of them. And, at some point, someone decided to throw out a more amusing version of that response. It _was_ funny at the time.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#696

The problems I’ve noticed with Stack Overflow are a few and hard for me to narrow down but basically: - google used to return really relevant results for SO, and it stopped doing so at some point a while ago - moderation on SO has gotten progressively more horrible. can’t tell you how many times I found the exact, bizarre question I was asking only to see one comment trying to answer it and then a mod aggressively sh…

I am old. I find what you wrote resonates with my SO experience, and, in my antiquity, I wonder, grumpily, why "RTFM" isn't faster than stack overflow, and i think the answer is the quality of the manuals to 'freaking' read has decreased. I'm just old enough to realize the Unix manpages were excellent in proprietary Unixes, and then the Linux manpages got complicated by some emacs based reader. Anyway, Unix manpages used to be a quality go-to in order to answer questions, BSD and Sun (BSD and SysV variants) and NeXT and Sequent etc. I'm still inclined to do that, but it's not always adequate.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#697
post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a constant stream of duplicate and low effort junk that gets only stronger over time, There's a question on meta from a decade ago about what the Roomba (automatic deletion scripts) should be deleting. One of the answers had a bit of point in time information: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/262077 > How much traffic do the questions that get duped to something bring? Especially the (currently) 410 questio…

Mistake I think. Because more and more facts are already covered by existing answers and more and more noobs (no judgement just fact we've all been there and I am still a noob in many regards) come into the industry as computing becomes more popular worldwide, it's unscalable unless the focus shifts towards getting people to find existing questions and answers instead of reducing SNR by asking and answering the same…

The scalability problem is indeed at the core of Stack Overflows woes.

When it was small, it was easier to handle the questions of the day, guide new users, handle the "fun" questions (and answers) in a way that wasn't off-putting, and generally be a smaller community.

As SO grew, it lost control of the culture that had been established there before (much like Usenet (different thread)) and became a place for people to do hit and run questions - drop their question, come back later, get the answer and move on.

The majority of the users of the site had moved from "community of people sharing information - asking and answering" to "new users without any cultural attachment asking a question and not remaining."

The core group culture became more defensive of their ideals... and lots of friction between management wanting more engagement and new users just wanting people to answer their question ("if you don't like the question, just move on" being a frequent refrain).

From A Group is its own worst enemy:

> 2.) The second thing you have to accept: Members are different than users. A pattern will arise in which there is some group of users that cares more than average about the integrity and success of the group as a whole. And that becomes your core group, Art Kleiner's phrase for "the group within the group that matters most."

> The core group on Communitree was undifferentiated from the group of random users that came in. They were separate in their own minds, because they knew what they wanted to do, but they couldn't defend themselves against the other users. But in all successful online communities that I've looked at, a core group arises that cares about and gardens effectively. Gardens the environment, to keep it growing, to keep it healthy.

> Now, the software does not always allow the core group to express itself, which is why I say you have to accept this. Because if the software doesn't allow the core group to express itself, it will invent new ways of doing so.

As the software didn't allow sufficient and proper moderation and curation tooling, the way that the the core group expressed itself was the more negative and ultimately toxic approaches. Snark and rudeness are the moderation tools of last resort.

A Group continues with:

> 3.) The third thing you need to accept: The core group has rights that trump individual rights in some situations. This pulls against the libertarian view that's quite common on the network, and it absolutely pulls against the one person/one vote notion. But you can see examples of how bad an idea voting is when citizenship is the same as ability to log in.

The current goals of upper management being advertising and engagement are not in alignment with the goals of the original founders (as idealistic as they were) and what remains of the core culture.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/introducing-stackoverflow-com/

> It is by programmers, for programmers, with the ultimate intent of collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world. No matter what programming language you use, or what operating system you call home. Better programming is our goal.

Note that good is italicized in the above quote and is present in the original.

---

Getting people to be able to find existing questions and clean up the SNR of the content out there on SO would improve it... but that would likely make a lot of lines go down rather than up (deleting 10,000 duplicates of one question would show up).

Trying to get Stack Overflow back to a scalable model doesn't further the engagement and upper management goals directly.

Instead, they're focused on more engagement... with not unexpected responses.

    https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/425532
    https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/425531
    https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/425530

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#698
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't. Because (free, as in free beer) chatGPT is extremely slow, I have to make a rather extensive proompt to get the result I want to, and then I still have to debug most code. That's because you are comparing asking ChatGPT to write full code to searching for a question on Stack Overflow and adapting their answer (which is comparing apples and oranges). Try using ChatGPT like you use Stack Overflow instead (…

>Try using ChatGPT like you use Stack Overflow instead (i.e. the question is "How would I record an audio stream to disk in Python" rather than "write me an application / function which..."). That's my point though. I get, that it can produce quite good results, if you are specific enough. And for some applications it makes sense to take your time and describe that as much as possible. Most of the time I just need so…

Personally ChatGPT generally gives me a quicker, better, simpler and ad-free result for the snippet (At least with GPT4).

Plus I can ask follow-up questions in a context-driven way ("Can I do this without importing a library?").

I'm aware that different people will have different feelings on this though and personal tastes will differ, but while search engines stagnate I suspect the needle will continue to shift towards AI.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're correct. I've heard that explanation before but it just seems too incredible that they'd undermine their monopolistic global billion dollar business for a measly share of the revenue of geeks4geeks.

the way you phrase it there makes it sounds miniscule, but you scale that up to the size of the SEOified internet and the numbers are surely into the billions

Last time I saw, Google gets much more revenue from ads on search than from the entire 3rd party ecosystem.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#700
I'm in the top 4% this year based on a Q/A I wrote in 2021 which it gathers a few votes a month. The ranking is an indicator of how pointless SO has become if I'm globally in the top 4% this year having posted nothing.

For me, there's no incentive to answer questions. It takes too long to get an answer, and the reply is usually some snide comment because too many assume it's an XY problem. It's generally worse than asking ChatGPT even when the AI gets it horribly wrong.

As for answering questions, I'd rather do that on my blog. Posting to SO is a time investment with zero return.

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