Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hope you don’t think invoking Reddit raises the stakes…
I'm not trying to raise the stakes. I'm trying to point out the level of maturity at rationalwiki.
Have attention spans been declining?
451–460 of 495 posts
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#452Earlier quoted context omitted.
The flip side is that when people get used to consuming content in 30 second blipverts, they become unable to maintain attention through a 10 second break in the action. I see this written so frequently. Is there any studies to back up this claim? Please forgive me: Normally, I abhor the "citation please" type of response, but this claim is misleading to me. It just sounds like grumpy old person complaining about spe…
> Is there any studies to back up this claim? Did you read TFA? It's the entire subject of the piece. One could analogize attention as a muscle. If you're only lifting 5KG dumbbells, you're not going to be able to lift 25KG.
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
You develop the skill of quickly determining what deserves your attention and what does not. Having a long attention span doesn't imply you give everything your full attention.
How does that make you feel good compared to reading a couple short feel-good or activating short articles?
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
Relatedly, I've found my life-long "sleep problems" go away very fast if I stop using electronics or electric lights after sundown. Go figure, you light up rooms with hundreds of candle-power like it's friggin' daytime, and have world-class entertainment of most any kind available at the press of a button like you're living in a World's Fair crossed with Vegas crossed with a Red Light district crossed with a video ga…
Have you written up your lifestyle anywhere? I'd like to read about it.
You can still: read, write, play music, play card and board games, lift weights to some extent (I didn't—a bit contrary to the getting-tired, plus I just didn't keep it up long enough to build in anything like that, though nb you probably don't want to be attempting max-weight lifts in low lighting or otherwise doing anything that's not very-safe) or do many bodyweight exercises, take walks or run (night walks are nice!), talk, do limited chores or cleaning, plan meals (assuming written recipes, or books), and so on. There is a ton of stuff to do by candlelight, or in no lighting (including, ahem, partner activities). You won't run out of stuff to do if you've got any kind of varied tastes in activities at all—but you also won't be doing stuff so extremely engaging that it keeps you from noticing when you're tired.
If I'd kept it up, I'd have found a way to listen to "the radio" (but actually streaming or flacs or whatever) and had exceptions to the no-screens for, at least, setting that up initially. Goal would have been to still barely look at the screen, though: set an album or a few albums or a long playlist of podcast episodes or old radio show episodes (some of these are really fun!) to play, and mostly leave it alone. I'd also have probably made an exception for e-ink book reading devices, provided no cheating by using them to browse the web—that seems well within the spirit of the thing, to me, and unlikely to veer back into hyper-stimulative or way-too-bright territory.
Things I noticed:
As mentioned, full-room lighting is stupid-bright. Way brighter than needed, and that's an understatement. Made me recall some of my older relatives' long-owned houses and how many rooms didn't have built-in lighting, but just had a switch-controlled outlet with a lamp attached—even just having the light come from somewhere lower made the room less intensely-bright, all else being equal. That seems far saner to me now, than what's normal in new houses. Are you trying to take daytime-like photos indoors at night? No? Then your lights are probably way too bright, likely by an order of magnitude, than what's remotely necessary. There's no way that's not affecting sleep—right?
You do need to have a way to carry one or more candles. You don't want to have dedicated candles lit in every room (including bathrooms!) unless, I dunno, you have people over maybe. Could probably safely remove a lot of this need with a small number of very-dim night lights (some are way brighter than a couple candles, though! Gotta shop carefully) without ruining the whole exercise.
Candles are painfully bright if they're your only light source, they're nearby (say, you're reading), and you look right at them, even in passing. Very unpleasant. If I'd kept it up, I'd have had to find a way to shade them somehow.
In fact, though, to keep it up longer-term, I'd have had to find or build an electric alternative. Unscented candles that don't smell like absolute ass (once you've smelled anything other than the common petroleum-based ones, those smell like a chemical waste dump) are fairly expensive to burn, are a fire hazard (obviously), and harm air quality even when they're a relatively-decent material. Most e.g. portable camping lights are far too bright and are a too-cold temperature to replicate candlelight. I expect I'd have ended up building a few little battery-powered lanterns with the dimmest warm-temp LEDs I could find, or maybe even dim and under-driven filament bulbs to get a smoother light curve—they'll last a long time if you run them way under-spec, and the inefficiency hardly matters at powers that low.
One persistent change I've made as a result of this is having a very-dim-bulb warm-temp floor lamp (some cheap Ikea thing, with about the dimmest warm-temp LED bulb I could find that'd fit it) for my office. It's the only nighttime lighting I use in there, most of the time—rarely use my overhead light. Point it at the wall if I just want to avoid stubbing my toes on things, aim it almost at me if I'm reading. It's more than enough light. Been meaning to swap out the end-table lamp bulbs in the bedroom with something about 1/4 as bright, but keep forgetting.
Another thing is that the past is a little more relatable. I've lived with candles (if not long—but it's enough to notice some things!) and know the pain points and really get and appreciate tools & design features that were built with them (and oil lamps, rushes, all that stuff) in mind, in a way I didn't quite so well before. Stuff uncommon now that used to be somewhat-common, like family read-alouds of novels make more sense to me now (not only were books more expensive, so you might have fewer of them—it takes way less lighting for one person to read, than for five, which really matters when light is expensive! IIRC the Brontës were supposed to have done a lot of this, but I gather many people did)
What makes it hard to keep up is life. In the Winter, especially, even if I'd tried to keep doing this, I'd have had to set a cut-off later than sundown, no question—you can't realistically go no-electronics-or-lights at like 5:30PM. Nobody else lives like this. (Almost) no place you go with others at night is like this. Chores pile up during the day because stay-at-home spouses aren't the norm anymore, so by the time you have even a second of free time it's already night, or else you've deferred all the chores to night, and adding friction to those is not fun. Going out after dark anywhere (say, grocery shopping) kinda screws it up. It's just fairly inconvenient given that all of life is now built around having day-like lighting available at night.
However, I think getting a good chunk of the way toward it is feasible, and would probably bring many of the same benefits.
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#455Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#456Because of my declining span of attention and ADHD, I could not reach the end of the post...
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#457Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not all of these are mutually exclusive, but there is also a fourth option: - ADHD was severely underdiagnosed in the past and got more accurately diagnosed in recent years
If I'm reading the parent comment correctly, I think they're saying that that the high rates currently being diagnosed require one of their three conditions to be true. That is, if ADHD is accurately diagnosed, and never had an evolutionary advantage, and isn't caused by some modern factor, then why would ADHD be so highly diagnosed today? Which is an interesting thought in my view
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Final anecdote to "prove" my point we did not lose our attention. I have taken ADHD-diagnosed boys to camp and fish. Of the twelve (ages 12-16), only one could not sit patiently and watch the line and bobber for extended period. You’re completely misrepresenting ADHD, so I don’t see how this anecdote proves your point. ADHD isn’t the inability to focus. In fact, it often comes with the ability to hyperfocus better…
> society is largely set up to favor neurotypicals at the expense of those with ADHD. As someone with diagnosed ADHD, I think this misrepresents ADHD. There's no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage; in a hunter-gatherer society, my tent would still be untidy and I'd still procrastinate fixing my spear before the hunt until the day before, and I'd still lose focus during the hunt and miss the deer walking pa…
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
You are implying that my argument isn't from experience when it is. My argument is that you are biased and projecting your own self-control problems on others and treating your solution as a universal truth to be learned. You are also conflating people looking at their phones to your previous drug addiction. >And please don't use what a person has said Ok, I'll remember to not include any topics or details anyone eve…
You clearly don’t realize that during this entire conversation, you are the one attacking me rather than focusing on the problem as I have done.
You see, you think it’s not that deep, but you don’t seem to grasp that what I presented isn’t all that deep to begin with.
What is so deep about people’s attention spans declining in the context of what I said?
Riight… it has something to do with me using drugs. Sorry.
Re: Have attention spans been declining?
#460Btw, I wouldn't be shocked if it found our attention spans are fine, what we're dealing with is environments that are getting harder and harder to do sustained activities within - because so many different demands on attention are going on all the time.