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Young people are flocking to astrology

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Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#821

Post by pierat »

Daishiman wrote: post #778
Enginerrrd wrote: post #769

I can't help but feel astonished how salient the classic Carl Sagan quote is here: "I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can…

It's as fun as always to subscribe to these narratives but I don't buy it. In the span of time that astrology has taken hold we have seen a dramatic loss in adepts to Christianity as well as its irrational beliefs like creationism. It's clear that a portion of society has a need for this type of beliefs, and they have merely supplanted Christianity with astrology and woo.

Christians believe in cannibalizing a human/god chimera, for the sole fact of trying to get rid of sin that you got when you were born....

And astrologers are weird?

The basis of astrology is the teachings of Hermes Trismegistus, and "as above, so below". And the teaching was that everything is connected, even if appearing distant or not connected.

Earlier astrology was more concerned with timings and when the esoteric energies were either maximized or minimized.

Which is saner than "imma go eat a god-wafer to try to get rid of sin that I somehow got cause 2 people fucked"...

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#822

Post by olddustytrail »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #782
baremetal wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it to mean the creation account is from God's perspective not ours. I don't have the slightest problem with modern science and it's reckoning of creation. The universe started with light in both accounts.

> The universe started with light in both accounts. First light was estimated to be about 240,000 to 300,000 years after the big bang, so I would hesitate to say that the universe started with light [1]. You could determine that the first "day" started 300,000 years or so after the big bang, but then that throws off the other timings of creation. This demonstrates how the bible isn't even precise enough to be proven…

That's just a bizarre definition of light. By that definition the center of a star is dark because the photons keep getting reabsorbed immediately. Which is always true from a photons point of view anyway, so what's the difference? In fact you might as well say that the universe was dark until the first eye evolved.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#823

Post by [deleted] »

baremetal wrote: post #696
varjag wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flag burning is a great example in fact: the outrage simply never reaches the levels it is with holy text burnings. Not to stone-the-tourists, burn-the-embassy levels of outrage: possibly (speculating here) because flag burning does not assault one's identity in a way similar to demonstrating the futility of one's beliefs. If we get to the punishments, things were clearly handed swiftly in the Old Testament. The Bibl…

>The Biblical concept of Hell as we know it (the place of eternal punishment) didn't emerge until the New Testament as it was in a way redundant. The OT did have a concept of Hell. It is called "Sheol"[1]. "Therefore Sheol enlarges its throat, and opens wide its enormous jaws, and down go Zion’s nobles and masses, her revelers and carousers!" Isaiah 5:14 "As drought and heat consume the melting snow, so Sheol steals…

[deleted]

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#824

Post by WorldMaker »

civilitty wrote: post #538
seer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the saying goes, “all models are wrong, some models are useful” While the astrology “model” is obviously wrong, it must have been useful to someone at sometime for it to have gained such a popularity. Like the “flat earth model” is actually extremely useful if you don’t intend (can’t) travel significant distances - gives you a coordinate system, maps and ways to predict where you’re going to be tomorrow if you tra…

> As the saying goes, “all models are wrong, some models are useful” While the astrology “model” is obviously wrong, it must have been useful to someone at sometime for it to have gained such a popularity. Yeah that’s how string theory got do popular. It’s usefulness. (Replace string theory with any subject from the entirety of metaphysics pre-scientific revolution) Snark aside, have you considered that astrology’s “…

Usefulness can be a very subjective thing. Plenty of string theorists find it useful. Some like to go on about how the math is all so usefully aesthetic compared to alternatives. It looks nice so it feels nice to work with, there's a usefulness there. Others talk about how String Theory has been very useful in finding new questions. Sure, it has been having a rough go at finding testable, predictable answers to all the new questions, but sometimes it is still very useful just to have interesting questions to ask the next theory, because maybe that will have useful answers. (The scientific process starts from questions, hypotheses, of course.)

I won't defend astrology's usefulness, but there's certainly centuries of subjective feelings about the subject to find in many libraries, if you care to. Usefulness as a subjective quality is orthogonal to any objective criticisms about the usefulness as a model.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#825

Post by pxc »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

> If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology,

I don't think this happens to anyone, in this day and age. Belief in astrology is driven by aesthetics, romanticism, and maybe an initially detached engagement with the practice that yields positive results. But people who take astrology seriously don't reason their way into it.

Probably everyone adopts unreasoned beliefs, of course. We don't explicitly think through every single idea that is or seems to be operative in our behavior. But in my experience, extremely intuitive people (who also tend to be spiritual, religious, of into some other form of woo) also tend not to filter or sanity check their intuitions by thinking them through explicitly. (Obviously anyone can do that, and everyone does sometimes. Some people just do it less often.) And they're also more likely to (explicitly) hold onto beliefs that they can logically acknowledge they have good reasons to doubt. They know they're something wrong with the belief, but their thought which identifies something wrong with it is subordinate to the feeling that something is essentially right about it. That feeling can and will shift, but usually in response to processes that are mostly invisible, or in response to direct experience.

People like this aren't stupid, imo, even though being close to them definitely involves moments where 'they're so stupid!' feels like the easiest way to write off frustrating behavior or communication problems. Generally, intuition-forward people do manage to live reasonably coherent lives and don't do dangerously irrational things. They're just extremely frustrating to communicate with for people on the opposite end of the spectrum, and not often directly responsive to rational appeals.

I have a few people like this in my life and they all have a lot of wonderful qualities. I'm glad they're in my life. But like you, I'm pretty confident that people like that would be bad fits for me as life partners, or even roommates.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#826

Post by pxc »

varjag wrote: post #345
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

> There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions.

Religion pretty much always involves beliefs that are as easy to problematize epistemologically as astrology is, but there are real differences in the kinds of people who are into astrology or neopaganism and the kinds of people who are Catholics.

When a religion is established and dominant, a lot of people engage with it in a detached way just because it's expected of them. They 'believe' essentially by default. They submit themselves to certain absurd beliefs as part of the tradition, but not all of them (e.g., the existence and presence of demons, for many Christians) are operative in their lives. People who participate in religions in that way can be very rational in a slightly strange way, with exceptions carved out just for religion.

I don't see this with 'serious' (i.e., metaphysical realism about the supernatural) belief in woo, at least among people like that in my life.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#827

Post by red-iron-pine »

varjag wrote: post #398
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me there is an a huge difference. I can accept religions, which are adding axioms that aren't falsifiable, and that are usually taught to a person when he is a child. And religions had their roles in shaping society for good. I can accept conspiracy theories and disbelieving the known consensus. I just can't accept a person who, in the age where we know exactly how planets move and what they are, decided to believ…

I feel it's more of a personal background issue. Do you really have objection with planets effects on personality but at the same time feel turning water into wine is plausible in the slightest? To a raised atheist all religions are not far removed from belief in Santa Claus. But to someone with religious people in the family cutting them off may come not as natural as of strangers with astrology brain.

water into wine is a fun story but pointless.

but plenty of Luke and Matthew underpin Christian ethics, and have been the justification for building schools, charities, hospitals, etc. for centuries.

people will hear what they want to hear, e.g. Loaves and Fishes vs. Angry Revaluation Jesus, but at least there is an attempt at altruism there.

Astrology has all of the woo woo mythology without attempting any sort of actual altruism, just inane categorization.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#828

Post by nmilo »

executesorder66 wrote: post #588
nmilo wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There comes times that you need to put your own principles aside for the good of yourself and for the other person, and forget trying to be "correct" all the time. Life gets a lot better when you realize that you probably can't, and shouldn't, try to change people's minds.

> shouldn't, try to change people's minds. Yeah the abolition of slavery was a mistake. We shouldn't have tried to change people's minds about that. We also should never have changed people's minds about smoking not being bad. Just let people believe what they want to believe. Live and let live. Fully agree with you.

Slavery wasn't abolished by changing people's minds via rational debate. Did you forget we had to literally send people with guns to shoot and kill the people that held that belief. They only changed their beliefs after decades under new laws and culture.

The research is out on changing people's beliefs, for most it usually causes them to dig their heels in and hate the other side even more. If you encounter a racist person or a Nazi in real life, you will not change their beliefs with rational debate, so don't even try. Just avoid them because they are unpleasant people. You will be happier if you stop fighting this futile moral crusade.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#829

Post by swat535 »

rcme wrote: post #427
varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

How is believing in religion rational?

Rather than engage in a conversation that will wind up being ultimately a superficial argument or confirmation of your current stance I recommend a book. It's called "Theology and Sanity" by Theologian Frank Sheed of Australia.

Arguing deep topics with a few lines of text every few hours is no way to be persuaded. But it will all too easily confirm your current ideas simply because you will get tired of it and you will conclude that nobody has any valid arguments against your position. This is why you have to get really serious about it and study under people who have "been there and done that" already. You will have to take the time to go through the entire process it cannot be done online.

It is strange that Atheists immediately discount philophical, theological and other arguments. For example, personal experiences and accepting the testimony and authority of those you trust is perfectly rational. It's not fullproof but it's still rational to do so, because there are many sorts of things that we have to accept as true based on such evidence.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#830

Post by [deleted] »

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

[deleted]
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