Young people are flocking to astrology • Hacker News Board

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#811

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #354

varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

I would argue that astrology is in principle testable and it should be able to make concrete predictions. Obviously, popular astrology uses such woolly terms that all of the predictions can be interpreted as accurate to the believer. However, the few times that anyone has tried to verify astrological predictions, it's turned out to be false. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1986-30007-001

Astrology benefits greatly from the pigeonhole fallacy. With as few as twelve pigeonholes in most astrological predictions, of course there are going to be enough people overfitted to the model that any prediction "succeeds" for enough people that you can claim all the failures were within the bounds of statistical error.

It's related to why MBTI lasted so long as "science" because it proved many concrete predictions through overfitting and hand-waving away errors as statistical anomalies rather than the pigeonhole principle at work. There are still plenty of people that think it valid. Perhaps ironically, MBTI even seems to making a comeback among many of the same people that are flocking to Astrology. If you're going to live by one pigeonhole fallacy you might as well live by more than one, I suppose.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#812

Post by RichardCA » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #769

I can't help but feel astonished how salient the classic Carl Sagan quote is here: "I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can…

Carl Sagan had quite a bit to say about Astrology. A lot of it was about Kepler, how he was strongly influenced by Astrology and how his mind was like a bridge between the two realities.

It's still worth watching: https://vimeo.com/287179518

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#813

Post by Brendinooo » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

evandale wrote: post #546

Brendinooo wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said 70 million Americans check their horoscope I’d like to see that broken down by age group, but if 20% of your population is doing something, that’s not the same as saying "I saw two people tweet about it" or whatever.

Is checking your horoscope considered believing in astrology? I ask because I check mine, but mostly for morning reminders and put my head on straight. Today mine starts with "The universe may deliver an ego bruise or two today, dear Virgo, as brooding Pluto squares off with the Nodes of Fate" and while I don't believe they're predicting a specific event it's nice to have that in the back of my mind today. Coincident…

> Is checking your horoscope considered believing in astrology?

I don't think this is something that I can answer, but at the very least it says that you're neutral enough toward it to allow it to speak into your life.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#814

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

baremetal wrote: post #696

varjag wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flag burning is a great example in fact: the outrage simply never reaches the levels it is with holy text burnings. Not to stone-the-tourists, burn-the-embassy levels of outrage: possibly (speculating here) because flag burning does not assault one's identity in a way similar to demonstrating the futility of one's beliefs. If we get to the punishments, things were clearly handed swiftly in the Old Testament. The Bibl…

>The Biblical concept of Hell as we know it (the place of eternal punishment) didn't emerge until the New Testament as it was in a way redundant. The OT did have a concept of Hell. It is called "Sheol"[1]. "Therefore Sheol enlarges its throat, and opens wide its enormous jaws, and down go Zion’s nobles and masses, her revelers and carousers!" Isaiah 5:14 "As drought and heat consume the melting snow, so Sheol steals…

[deleted]

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#815

Post by olddustytrail » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:06 PM UTC

slowmovintarget wrote: post #108

nitwit005 wrote: post #35

People have flocked to astrology for the last couple thousand years. The best scams are proven scams.

Fun fact: Because people have been using the same astrological charts for a few thousand years, every single "sign" is off by at least one nowadays due to stellar drift. But convincing a believer is like trying to explain to a die-hard flat-earther that the world is roughly spherical.

Actually astrologers are well aware of this, it's why they sometimes refer to this being the "Age of Aquarius" because the sun is in Aquarius rather than Pisces at the equinox (there aren't strict boundaries so there's some disagreement).

And the effect is called the precession of the equinox. It's not stellar drift.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#816

Post by varjag » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:07 PM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #643

varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

By going to your logical conclusion, perhaps we should not accept any of the world's religions then either, given that they are also arbitrary. Just because many are old and have many followers does not give them credence over astrology.

I mean, sure? Fine by me.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#817

Post by varjag » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

rcme wrote: post #427

varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

How is believing in religion rational?

You tell me?

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#818

Post by gochi » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:10 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #794

varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

Most secular researchers agree that Jesus, Mohammad, the Buddha, etc., were real historical figures, so that’s a qualitative difference. Moreover, there are entire civilizations built on those belief systems—including the one you live in. Comparing those civilizations is an empirical basis for comparing the underlying belief systems.

Those civilizations were built in spite of not based off those beliefs. We wouldn't have created anything more than mud huts if we were to rely on adhering to belief systems.

You cannot control people while also pushing the limits of humanity, they are mutually exclusive. To ignore this is to ignore religious systems were always about control and order, not progress.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#819

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

RichardCA wrote: post #808

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

Astrology is important to the extent that it represents the history of Astronomy. If someone can correctly explain the difference between the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac, that requires a certain level of knowledge and skill. I've been to planetarium shows where the presenter goes out of their way to debunk Astrology and it's usually the argument that the constellations don't line up with the Zodiac. But that lecture…

That lecturer may not even need to know or care about the Ptolemaic Model. It is interesting history, but it isn't relevant to modern day science. It's a bit like being angry at a chemistry lecturer for not wanting to discuss any old Phlogiston Model or use the alchemical signs for Oxygen or Mercury when he has a perfectly nice, modern and up-to-date Periodic Table right next to him.

Which is also a fun comparison to make because the astrology symbols for planets directly relate to the old useless and outdated alchemical signs.

So yes, Astrology has some relevant historic interest, but it's so far detached from modern science that I think it is almost weird to bring up in that sort of context.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#820

Post by gochi » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #498

rcme wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is believing in religion rational?

> How is believing in religion rational? By having personal experience(s) of things that cannot be explained in any other way? * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun By employing one's sense of logic? * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-...

There's an entire explanation section on that link, I don't know why you're using it as proof that "it cannot be explained in any other way". Choosing to believe something happened is one thing, choosing to believe that is undeniably attributed to a larger power is an added layer that isn't rational at all.

You are misusing logic in the same way. You are disconnecting it from its value in order to justify a belief in a larger power. This is neither logical or rational.

The entire idea that religion is rational or logical is one that's been pushed since the late enlightenment era upon realizing that you cannot control others through religion unless they believe that you are operating rationally on behalf of a larger power. This is the trick. It's very effective!