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Young people are flocking to astrology

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Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#671

Post by uncletaco »

harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

I’ve used Co-Star for years only because each day it gives me some vague advice in the morning and I use said advice to spice my day up. I couldn’t care less about the divine origins of astrology but the engine is written in haskell and that’s about as much divinity as I need. If a company is so obsessed with types that they even go hard on them at the code level I can’t help but want them to succeed.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#672

Post by lm28469 »

LinXitoW wrote: post #315
lm28469 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we really surprised that after destroying religions and traditions young people look for things other than money and careers ? Almost as if consumerism was showing its limits...

That feels like a false dichotomy. You can have beliefs outside of consumerism without resorting to religions or traditions.

If it was the case the west wouldn't be 70% overweight/obese. They believe in so little they can't even take care of their own self. Depression is on the rise, the loneliness epidemic, &c. it all has the same origin, we changed our ways of life too fast/too much

There isn't much left besides consumerism, it's just that it's disguised under so many masks that you don't even perceive it anymore. The vast majority of hobbies are consumerist, even holidays (I don't have to remind you where "Holy" days came from do I?) became consumer oriented, vacation destinations are 90% about consumerism (I went to X, I've done X, it's all a checkbox in some todo list)

We consume our endless diarrhea of entertainment, we consume our vacation destinations, we consume our news sources, we consume our "content", we consume our sub par food, if you can even call that food anymore. People spend something like 4 to 6 hours per day in from of their mobile, doomscrolling twitter/instagram/reddit or playing games.

Anyways, we'd need a book to unravel that topic.

“At the beginning of human history, man lost some of the basic animal instincts in which an animal's behavior is embedded and by which it is secured. Such security, like paradise, is closed to man forever; man has to make choices. In addition to this, however, man has suffered another loss in his more recent development inasmuch as the traditions which buttressed his behavior are now rapidly diminishing. No instinct tells him what he has to do, and no tradition tells him what he ought to do; sometimes he does not even know what he wishes to do. Instead, he either wishes to do what other people do (conformism) or he does what other people tell him to do (totalitarianism).”

― Viktor E. Frankl

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#673

Post by everybodyknows »

Tade0 wrote: post #457
donatj wrote: post #97

The number of people in my life who have recently taken to astrology and started buying "healing" crystals is frankly disheartening. You try to argue with them they just call you toxic. I suspect it's a social virus.

The other day I went with my family to an old pyrite mine which is now a tourist spot. We were greeted by a stand with crystals with supposedly miraculous properties. What was the only miraculous thing to me was the type of poker face the seller had when explaining the details of his products' properties. I can't hope to ever reach this level of, ahem, professionalism.

A salesman once told me that to be good at the job requires "believing your own bullshit".

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#674

Post by _yb2s »

harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

Meyers Briggs (MBTI) is based on Jungian archetypes. Those were explicitly designed by Jung as a framework for discussing emotions and the unconscious like you are saying, and were never intended to offer any new information on their own.

People misunderstand the MBTI because all it does is locate what you tell it about how you see yourself onto a coordinate system.

From a Jungian perspective, the result of the MBTI is not interesting directly- people already know how they see their own personality!

The point of these archetypes from Jung’s perspective is to figure out which types you don’t identify with- what would be the opposite of your MBTI type, or your “shadow.” This gives you some perspective on exploring the aspects of yourself you have rejected, allowing you to be a more well rounded (integrated) person. This is a painful and difficult process, and the very idea of it is usually upsetting to people when they first hear of it.

It is very simple and straightforward tool, but is mostly misunderstood and misused, which also leads people to expecting it to have some “magical powers” or dismissing it as “pseudoscience.” It was never intended to be “magic” or “science” but to be a system to help people explore themselves in ways they otherwise would not. It is intended to be a set of arbitrary axes- however they are aspects that Jung personally felt were important for people to explore, according to his own values and philosophy.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#675

Post by [deleted] »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #410
simbolit wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the h*ll do you know about my life? Nothing.

That’s true, and I don’t mean to downplay your experiences. This is more of me trying to convince you that it’s okay to feel angry and hurt without it taking away from other peoples’ experiences. It doesn’t have to be a you-or-them phenomenon. All I’m saying is that it pervades womens’ lives more. They have to deal with it constantly, every day. If you have any trans friends, I’d encourage you to ask them about it, s…

[deleted]

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#676

Post by ke88y »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

> If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology

> I can tolerate conspiracy theories, or aliens, or whacky religions, but astrology is just so dumb.

To be honest, I find your epistemological lapse even more confusing than believers in astrology. There's no significant epistemological difference between eg astrological claims and religious claims. You don't even have to limit yourself "whacky" religions; any of the mainstream ones will do.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#677

Post by InitialLastName »

jncfhnb wrote: post #590
harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

It’s a good point but it’s not equal. Myers Briggs is nice a framework. You can just look at the axes of personality and use them to structure a claim about where you land. The test is not the important bit. I think many people have not considered the dimensions of personality that it proposes. Astrology not so much. You can’t describe yourself as a linear combination of different signs or at least, you’re not meant…

> Myers Briggs is nice a framework.

My favorite thing about Meyers-Briggs is when people claim their classification is so rare that it only applies to 6% of people.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#678

Post by retrac »

harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

The Shang of early China are a good example. The oracle bone divination was highly systematized. They would ask the ancestors questions written on bones and shells, with the supposed answers forming along the cracks through the writing when subjected to intense heat. This role was fundamental to the king's power and authority -- a common question was whether and how to perform human sacrifices.

They were meticulous record keepers about it. Answers were collated and tallied. Ancestors who weren't helpful were punished and not asked as many serious questions; those who were helpful became relied upon. Almost experimental in nature.

Anyway, it may have all worked. In the sense of producing decisions with outcomes better than random chance. Like the common interpretation of how a Ouija board works, sort of. Group subconsciousness subtly pulling in one direction more than another.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#679

Post by detourdog »

Loughla wrote: post #663
FishInTheWater wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with them is that it's not simply "looking at oneself". If you were using divination for that purposes then it's no issue. Harmless superstition is fine. But things like personality tests and other pseudoscience see regular use in hiring and promotion. And that's just ridiculous, damaging for both "honest" applicants and the company, as such processes favour dishonest people.

Do personality tests see regular use in hiring and promotion? What are some examples of that? My workplaces have offered those sorts of things as professional development, but not for direct promotion or hiring practices. I would be fascinated to see the outcome of a place that does use those things in that way.

Long ago the first place I worked developed a HyperCard stack for Myers-Briggs evaluations for a specific company. The company used it as tool to improve communications between existing employees. The purpose is to give everyone the same language. Fundamentally one is not in simply one category but can move through all the categories based on their current state and context.

Helping people have language to express this thoughts has value.

Misuse of any tool is a problem.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#680

Post by briantakita »

FishInTheWater wrote: post #652
detourdog wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of theses old ideas are simply ways to look at yourself from the outside. Any value is the insight it provides to oneself.

The issue with them is that it's not simply "looking at oneself". If you were using divination for that purposes then it's no issue. Harmless superstition is fine. But things like personality tests and other pseudoscience see regular use in hiring and promotion. And that's just ridiculous, damaging for both "honest" applicants and the company, as such processes favour dishonest people.

These are more like frameworks for imagining & interacting with the complexities of reality. Similar to an interactive Philosophy. Worldviews cannot be avoided & nobody holds a purely objective viewpoint...anyone who claims to hold an purely objective viewpoint is a liar or delusional.
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