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Young people are flocking to astrology

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Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#501

Post by throw0101a »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #478
throw0101a wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Some of the world's religions can start off from a basis of logic: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35592365-five-proofs-of-...

That logic appears to be flawed though and involves a fair amount of hand-waving. https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13752 > Feser’s formalization of this argument appears around page 35. It has 49 premises. I shit you not. Most of them are uncontroversial on some interpretation of the words he employs (that doesn’t mean they are credible on his chosen interpretation of those words, but I’ll charitably ignore t…

I would not turn to Carrier if you wish to counter-argue Feser:

> In an article at his blog, pop atheist writer Richard Carrier grandly claims to have “debunked!” (exclamation point in the original) Five Proofs of the Existence of God. It’s a bizarrely incompetent performance. To say that Carrier attacks straw men would be an insult to straw men, which usually bear at least a crude resemblance to the argument under consideration. They are also usually at least intelligible. By contrast, consider this paragraph from the beginning of Carrier’s discussion of the Aristotelian proof:

[…]

> As near as I can tell after reading and rereading those mind-numbingly obscure passages, what Carrier is criticizing is an argument that tries to show that God is the cause of the universe arising from nothing. And as near as I can tell, his objection is something to the effect that if we think carefully about what a “nothing-state” would be, we will see that that theistic conclusion isn’t warranted. Other scenarios, such as a multiverse scenario, are no less likely or even more likely. Of course, this has, again, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what the Aristotelian proof actually says, and so Carrier’s objection would be completely irrelevant even if it were at all clear what that objection is. Carrier’s readers will learn as much about what my Aristotelian argument actually says as they would if they’d read an automotive repair manual instead. Only that would have been more lucid and interesting reading.

* https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/02/carrier-on-five-pro...

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#502

Post by joshstrange »

nicbou wrote: post #494
joshstrange wrote: post #264

At this point I assume all articles saying “young people are doing X” to be total bollocks. Like the articles we’ve seen here about paper maps making a comeback for young people (a small handful of people were using them as art) or the “young people trading their smartphones for dumb phones” which had a tiny sample size and sounded like bullshit. Nowadays you find 1-2 tweets (or similar), call it a trend, and move on…

I always swap the subject with "a dozen people on twitter".

We could only be so lucky if “a dozen people” was the bar that “journalists” held themselves to. I’ve seen articles written on a single post/comment from Reddit, it’s absurd.

That said, I’m absolutely going to start rewriting titles in my head like that, good idea.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#503

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

varjag wrote: post #480
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of any religions that make any clear predictions, so they're not even wrong (as opposed to astrology which is clearly wrong). So-called punishments are typically enacted in some other realm (e.g. after-life, rebirth into a lower form etc) which leads to some experimental problems in verifying the claims. I disagree about your interpretation of burning of religious books - surely that's more to do with p…

Flag burning is a great example in fact: the outrage simply never reaches the levels it is with holy text burnings. Not to stone-the-tourists, burn-the-embassy levels of outrage: possibly (speculating here) because flag burning does not assault one's identity in a way similar to demonstrating the futility of one's beliefs. If we get to the punishments, things were clearly handed swiftly in the Old Testament. The Bibl…

> And come on, we know holy texts are full of things which are clearly wrong, in exactly the same way astrology is. The temptation to gloss over them as ornamental bits is huge, but to believers they are doctrinal.

I can't think of any precise statements that are clear enough to be proved true or false. Usually holy texts have vague enough language that it's very much a case of interpretation. e.g. The Genesis creation story states that God created the universe in 6 days, but any attempt to demonstrate that it is false will have believers declaring that a "day" is not a precise measurement of time.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#504

Post by commonlisp94 »

rcme wrote: post #427
varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

How is believing in religion rational?

Is it rational to believe in humanism? Is it rational to believe in social progress narratives? Is it rational to believe in science as a "force for good"?

I have only met a few "true atheists" -- people who do not deeply believe in some narrative that provides meaning and exists outside of the material world.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#505

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #333
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems a pretty unfair comparison. Taylor Swift is a musical artist and creates art for people’s enjoyment. Astrology is a long-running grift that has defrauded society’s easily exploited; mostly women. They’re just not the same.

I suspect most people who are into astrology are doing it for enjoyment too. Not sure how somebody who enjoys looking at their weekly horoscope is being defrauded.

I'm sure some are, but I wouldn't know how to determine what proportion of the market is just entertainment versus people being misled by charlatans who promise good fortune after having to pay a literal fortune. This applies to all New Age gimmicks; not just astrology.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#506

Post by a2tech »

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

I wonder if you ever think 'why don't I get a lot of dates'. If you do...this is why.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#507

Post by throw0101a »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #433
rcme wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this not bigger news? He actually proved God exists???

Because it is impossible to prove such thing. All arguments of this kind rely on some kind of shaky or dubious foundation.

> All arguments of this kind rely on some kind of shaky or dubious foundation.

No, they do not. Aristotle's Argument from 'Motion':

    1. Some things in the world are changing. (Observation)

    2. Whatever is changing is being changed by another.[1] (Lemma 1)

    3. There cannot be an infinite regress of instrumental changers.[2] (Lemma 2)

    4. Therefore, there must be a changer that is not itself being changed by another.
* https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/first-way-part-iv-casca...

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#508

Post by tsukikage »

xwdv wrote: post #454
VoodooJuJu wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, lighten up. She was playing a game with you, probably flirting. And you didn't play the game very well. Mysticism is fun, aesthetic, and filled with more questions than answers. Play the game some time, you might enjoy it. I also can't believe you actually found a way to weasel racism into the conversation. It's all so tiresome.

Sorry, but I don’t see where it says he has to respond to a woman’s nonsense flirtatious mysticism by lowering his own standard for discourse down to her level. He does not have to tolerate her magical thinking. I think he drew an interesting correlation between racism and her astrological beliefs that she likely has never heard before, and perhaps will give her some much needed introspection. That is a far more mean…

> respond to a woman’s nonsense flirtatious mysticism by lowering his own standard for discourse

Flirting is an informal process for obtaining answers to questions about a potential partner in advance of any significant commitment or risk and without having to deal with matters of any particular importance; questions such as "how well do we communicate?", "do I enjoy spending time with this person?", "how do they perceive me?", "how do they describe me to others?" and "how do they respond when we disagree on something?"

Reacting to these situations with denigration and hostility is very unlikely to leave a good impression; though certainly it does yield valuable information to the recipient.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#509

Post by whywhywhywhy »

joshstrange wrote: post #264

At this point I assume all articles saying “young people are doing X” to be total bollocks. Like the articles we’ve seen here about paper maps making a comeback for young people (a small handful of people were using them as art) or the “young people trading their smartphones for dumb phones” which had a tiny sample size and sounded like bullshit. Nowadays you find 1-2 tweets (or similar), call it a trend, and move on…

Most likely explanation and headline would be “Journalists TikTok feed showed 5 videos of young people doing X”

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#510

Post by commonlisp94 »

hardlianotion wrote: post #418
varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

One of those world religions being the irrational belief in the power of science.

Not only science itself, but humanity being a grand progression of scientific progress leading to our year 2023.
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