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Young people are flocking to astrology

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#441

Post by [deleted] »

hutzlibu wrote: post #301
seer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the saying goes, “all models are wrong, some models are useful” While the astrology “model” is obviously wrong, it must have been useful to someone at sometime for it to have gained such a popularity. Like the “flat earth model” is actually extremely useful if you don’t intend (can’t) travel significant distances - gives you a coordinate system, maps and ways to predict where you’re going to be tomorrow if you tra…

"The time of birth can also correlate loosely with personality. " I mean it does have an effect, if you spend the first months of your life outside in the sun, or hidden inside. And the parents also behave different in summer than in winter. But to conclude that every person born in december must be like this and that .. is frustrating to deal with.

[deleted]

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#442

Post by flanked-evergl »

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

> I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatically likely to have certain traits.

If astrology was true, then ignoring astrology when interacting with some would tantamount to dehumanising them, because if it were true, that would determine who you are as an individual.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#443

Post by coldtea »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

>Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously.

Doesn't that speak more about you than about them?Highly intelligence (IQ wise) people have also been into astrology (and alchemy, magic, etc.). Not just in the time of Newton (an avid follower of the above), but in our times too.

>I can tolerate conspiracy theories, or aliens, or whacky religions, but astrology is just so dumb.

That's a quite crude model of what's rational. Something doesn't have to follow physics to have utility (I mean, utility beyond "making astrologers money").

A less crude epistemology would focus on what makes astrology resilient and widespread throughout several millenia, and what kind of purposes it might serve, as opposed to focusing on whether its compatible with hard sciences, or the knee-jerk reaction that "it's because people are stupid".

I'm not much for astrology (I barely know my sign), but I've read a couple of posts about it, and there's something to be said for not jumping to conclusions about a phenomenon with a complex history.

Here's, for example, a classic failure in criticizing astrology that I've read about somewhere: many "rationalists" make fun of astrology's claim that we're supposed to be influenced by the stars, since (the argument goes) their gravity pull is too low to matter, besides the moon would influence many orders of magnitudes more.

But astrology doesn't claim that the stars influence us through gravity. It speaks about influence on the astral plane (which is some kind of different dimension), not through some mechanistic principle. And, of course, astrology is so much older than the discovery of gravity, that "rationalists" making this argument must not know history, or maybe just had a temporary brain fart in making that argument.

I'd say astrology is not that far removed from religion (which you say accept or tolerate). I also found this interesting note on astrology on a "metaphysical" blog:

"Before we go on, it’s probably necessary to note a few points that may come as a surprise to some of my rationalist readers. Yes, I know about the precession of the equinoxes; astrologers discovered the precession of the equinoxes. (Where did you think all that talk about the Age of Aquarius comes from?) Yes, I know that the constellation Aries is no longer in the 30° wedge of the ecliptic that astrologers call the zodiacal sign Aries. (Signs are not constellations and constellations are not signs; every beginner’s textbook of astrology explains that.) Yes, I know that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not vice versa; astrologers use the geocentric positions of the planets because we live on the Earth, not the Sun. (It’s the planetary positions relative to where you are that matter in astrology.) Finally, yes, I know that nobody knows how astrology works; so? It’s a thumping logical fallacy to insist that an effect can’t happen just because the cause isn’t known".

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#444

Post by vijucat »

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

I've always liked this one, "My sun sign is Xoltran". "There's no such sun sign!". "Hey, the others are all made up, too, so why not my own? ;-)"

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#445

Post by 7952 »

keiferski wrote: post #94
luc4sdreyer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to support this idea because it goes against my worldview as an atheist from a very conservative society. I grew up on Hitchens and Dawkins. But the YouGov poll [1] that the WaPo article is based seems to support this idea: 30% of Agnostics answered yes to the following question: "Do you believe in astrology, or that the position of the stars and planets influence people’s lives?" [1]: https://today.youg…

Dawkins [1] and Hitchens’ works on religion are pop-science/culture books, not serious academic studies. Virtually no scholars in philosophy, religious studies, etc. agree with the narratives they present. Instead, I would read Taylor, Robert Bellah’s Religion in Human Evolution , and maybe Nietzsche’s Genealogy of Morality. 1. His non-biological work, that is.

But I guess most people are not really interested in religous studies. The useful thing to understand is that thought rooted in religon can be discarded out of hand.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#446

Post by sillysaurusx »

hashtag-til wrote: post #341
jacquesm wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My advice would be (if you're in it to make a living) to get out and move into finance.

I've been thinking if I should mode from my soulless job in ML to a soulless job in finance.

Just wanted to chime in and say that your “soulless job in ML” comment is relatable, and your experience isn’t unique. I had one too. I saved up a lot of money from it, but by the end it nearly cost me my remaining passion.

A soulless job in finance is better if you like(d) ML at all, because then you can keep your interests separate from your job.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#447

Post by jacquesm »

uwagar wrote: post #431
jacquesm wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the reason this is happening is science and rational thinking has really let them down in their lifetime, especially during the pandemic. No it hasn't. Science and rational thinking are part of the reason that many are still alive. Without vaccines the number of dead would be far, far higher than it ended up being (and people are still dying of COVID right now, but fortunately in lower numbers and it looks like we…

>Without vaccines the number of dead would be far, far higher than it ended up being based on what? 'projections' from sources that commissioned the cures and the mandates? what to believe? who to believe? let's cue in data ambiguity and conflict of interest as among the reasons why this is happening. most of the young people were not affected by the virus but had to lose key years of their life to save old people. t…

I suggest you look at the world wide statistics from before the vaccine roll-out and afterwards. There is nothing to 'believe', that data is about as non-ambiguous as it comes and you should be very, very grateful that those people spent their lives learning the skills required to save our collective asses, especially in light of the way their contributions are being minimized.

And if you don't understand that then that's fine with me but that still doesn't mean that science has 'let you down'. You benefit from science every day of your life, even if you don't want to credit it.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#448

Post by Dalewyn »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #421
Dalewyn wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While it’s true that men have body image issues, when’s the last time you’ve seen them objectified the way a woman was in this thread? Literally any time I've seen women talk about what they like/want from men? Go take a stroll through any NSFW r/AskReddit thread, plenty to see in there from both sides of the chamber! >Worse, men tend to refuse to believe it’s a problem, and file it in the nonsense bucket. Concerns…

Your comment is pretty thoughtful, so I’d like to respond in kind. One difference is that we rarely gain or lose jobs based on how we look. Another difference is that if we were to try to make a living by being a sex worker, we’d find that our income is much less than women, precisely because of the demand for a certain type of body. This realization is the essence of body image issues; to know that no matter what yo…

I absolutely agree that looks play a role in how our lives can play out, our (and more broadly between men and women) disagreement is to what extent they play a role and consequently to what extent someone should care about their own looks.

I also agree that certain occupations will no doubt place additional biases concerning one's looks. Anyone in the service industry will likely find themselves performing better if they satisfy a certain standard of appearance, in addition to things like mannerism and personality.

But we are talking within the context of the tech industry, the jobs of which often find us staring at monitors and screens and clacking away on keyboards more than we do staring at each other. What we can achieve with our craft plays a bigger role than what we look like, here. One's looks has no bearing upon the quality of the code we write, after all, for example.

>I note that this thread started out with a comparison of astrology to racism, and everybody seemed to buy into that.

I actually disagree with that comparison because I want to believe words still hold meaning.

Racism is discrimination, and astrology used as a way to judge someone is also discrimination. Discrimination is never okay. But to call astrology racism only demonstrates one's lack of linguistic understanding.

We would also ignore how astrology by itself is just another fun pastime. Making fun of someone who's engaging in astrology is bad because you're making fun of someone who's just enjoying their time. Both men and women would naturally lean towards not mingling with people who don't respect their time and passions.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#449

Post by Brendinooo »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #437
joshstrange wrote: post #264

At this point I assume all articles saying “young people are doing X” to be total bollocks. Like the articles we’ve seen here about paper maps making a comeback for young people (a small handful of people were using them as art) or the “young people trading their smartphones for dumb phones” which had a tiny sample size and sounded like bullshit. Nowadays you find 1-2 tweets (or similar), call it a trend, and move on…

"Young People Sceptical of Articles Claiming New Trends in Young People"

They said 70 million Americans check their horoscope

I’d like to see that broken down by age group, but if 20% of your population is doing something, that’s not the same as saying "I saw two people tweet about it" or whatever.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#450

Post by causi »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #377
varjag wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

To me there is an a huge difference. I can accept religions, which are adding axioms that aren't falsifiable, and that are usually taught to a person when he is a child. And religions had their roles in shaping society for good. I can accept conspiracy theories and disbelieving the known consensus. I just can't accept a person who, in the age where we know exactly how planets move and what they are, decided to believ…

At least religions bother making their false predictions untestable. How do you fall for something that proves itself wrong every day?
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