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Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

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Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tribalism is often encouraged by invaders and colonizers. Divide and Conquer is a classic tactic. See Tutsi Vs Hutu for one notable example in Africa. And this was a known strategy in apartheid South Africa.

Is this really blamed on Apartheid? Whenever I have talked with South African Blacks about the various tribal affiliations of the country, they claim that each community did not much like each other (and everyone hated the Zulus) since long before white people arrived. Indeed, it was white oppression that gave an impetus to pan-Africanism where, for a time in the ANC, people might have united across tribal affiliatio…

The Tutsi and Hutu split stretches back before colonisation too.

You could make the argument that it was always going to be a problem and the colonizers didn't materially affect the course of history.

What you can't do is argue they didn't intentionally take advantage of this split for their own purposes. Because they did and it's documented history.

edit to add:

Here's a pro-apartheid Quora answer that suggests the separation of the different tribes was necessary to stop communists from stealing South Africa's mineral wealth.

> Apartheid gave these tribes their land back. Apartheid gave each tribe his independence from White Rule. Yes you lived ‘apart’ from the whites. But you lived apart in your own country. You could choose your own leaders and government and destiny.

> Communism was one of the driving forces to push the Black Independence program. The communists were using the blacks to try out vote the whites so that they could get control of of SAs mineral resources. By dividing SA into several smaller countries you effectively defeated the Communist plan.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#52
post #6

[flagged]

I dont know if you are being racist or trying to sarcastically point out racism against white people, but the first sentence in the article says "Corruption, government incompetence and policy paralysis", and Im guessing SAR doesnt have a white only govt.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36838661

He’s responding to the original title of the article.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#53

"There Are No Successful Black Nations" was the original title of this article in Foreign Policy: https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/09/why-black-people-must-h... It's an uncomfortable title, but it's a truth that must be confronted. How have once downtrodden countries like Korea, China, and large swaths of Eastern Europe been able to turn rags into riches while most of Africa has so far failed to? GDP is not everythi…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>99% should not be going around saying socialism sucks. LOL, love the tone policing. Do you realise some people actually lived under socialism? I am from East Europe.

Then you know first hand how truly wonderful it was. I've heard nothing but good things.

Visit Norway.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#55

"There Are No Successful Black Nations" was the original title of this article in Foreign Policy: https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/09/why-black-people-must-h... It's an uncomfortable title, but it's a truth that must be confronted. How have once downtrodden countries like Korea, China, and large swaths of Eastern Europe been able to turn rags into riches while most of Africa has so far failed to? GDP is not everythi…

> How have once downtrodden countries like Korea, China, and large swaths of Eastern Europe been able to turn rags into riches while most of Africa has so far failed to?

At least for Eastern Europe, the answer is very clear: the European Union imposing a serious baseline regarding democracy, rule of law and corruption. While Poland and especially Hungary are testing how far the patience of the EU can stretch, in general it's still holding up. On top of that, Eastern European nations/their populations wanted to join the EU desperately, wishing to never experience authoritarian realsozialismus again.

China had an immense amount of young, trainable people and a lack of environmental and worker regulations, which the West was all too keen on exploiting, and established trade routes from UK empire times. That's how they got big.

Africa, in contrast, had and widely still has nothing. No coalition/federation that pushed applicants to improve, no/barely any external interest in the countries, no major trade routes, no one who gave a flying fuck about the entire region. The US largely don't care as long as there is no bad actor threatening their interests (such as ISIS, al-Quaeda and its offshoots), Europe doesn't care about anything but getting rid of migrants no matter what, the Arabs don't care, and there aren't natural resources worth the trouble of extracting them without violating supply chain concerns. The only ones at least caring a bit about Africa as a continent are the Chinese, but they don't care about politics as long as they get a supply of workers and a potential market for cheap crap now that Europe and the US are saturated - we're seeing first signs of that by Chinese fast fashion taking over clothing from Western "second hand" (mitumba) stuff.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an actual quote, but rather a later-paraphrased summary of John Steinbeck, "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

Steinbeck was a hack. There aren’t enough calories in breastmilk to sustain life for an adult male. Also, equal opportunities for your whole population is a noble goal. Twisting that into, “Americans are delusional to think they could ever succeed”, just makes it seem like you hate America. You could twist socialism into, “You were afraid that not everyone could win so now nobody wins”, and be equally wrong.

You lost me at the first sentence.

Steinbeck was one of our great writers and the Nobel Committee, which is hardly American-controlled, awarded him the prize in literature "for his realistic and imaginative writings, combining as they do sympathetic humor and keen social perception."

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#58
post #5

When people vote for politicians based on moral appeals instead of practical qualifications, corruption is much more likely; politicians don't have to do a good job, they just have to appear to be on the "good" side.

it's really not that simple

don't forget the reason people voted for the nazis in Germany was not because they believed in their values but because they seemed competent to change things to the better, while all established parties seemed to not be able to do so

this (in a roundabout way) then put them in a position where they could size the remaining power by force transition into the power which would later start WW2

And it's not just back then. For example today many "right wing" forces in Europe use that arguments too telling people about how they (supposedly) can fix all the issues if you just stop nitpicking about "enter moral/ethic discussion here" and it just because the other parties blocking them for "insert slang for someone overdoing ethical correctness" reasons. Sure all a lie and most thing they propose tend to fall into the category of "looks like it could work until you understand market dynamics a bit better" and similar but people still get tricked.

Just to be clear in some parts of the world there seems to be an issue with political correctness and over policing(A) opinions but this is not a reason to stop putting ethical reasons into the selection of you vote, because AFIK the moment people stop that thing will get way worse.

(A) Like from outside of the US the US seems to suffer from it, but then when looking at inner US news closer I'm not sure if it's an actual issue or just people highlighting the exceptional case instead of the norm and starkly over exaggerating problems.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#59

"held out the promise of an efficient state-led economy that would uplift the downtrodden Black majority. And for a while, it did." There it is, the perpetually-available deal offered by all politicians: give us power and we will fix problem X (or maybe all problems). Maybe intentions are good and the power is used to alleviate problem X. But soon those interested in solving X are replaced by those interested in the…

Sounds like a pretty good argument that South Africa's previous regime should not have given up power.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#60
post #23

Meh, SA has supposedly been on the "brink of chaos" ever since Apartheid ended, and yet it never happens. I'm getting tired of this narrative. I've visited once. Yes, many things seem to have gone south, but those are growing pains every country goes through to achieve a proper political and economic system. Of course it is easy to avoid "chaos" when the majority of the people are brutally suppressed. Actually crafti…

Was anyone pitched in 1994 that "of course we'll have to go through horrible wars for centuries but it will ultimately be worth it"?
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