Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#121

Post by AlecSchueler » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 4:29 PM UTC

ljm wrote: post #88

noodlesUK wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK and Ireland are uniquely countries in Europe that don’t have any form of national ID card. The UK was going to get (continental) EU style ID cards in 2008-2010 but this proved to be rather controversial at the time due to perceptions of government overreach and dragnet biometrics. Instead of just doing a simple ID card with just facial biometrics (like a passport), the whole project was scrapped. I don’t know…

Yep, from the UK and remember all the fearmongering about ID cards being like a step back towards Nazi Germany and being asked to show your papers on the streets and all that. I think the real reason was that it sounded like it’d cost £60 (or close to that) per ID, which is pretty damn expensive when it’s mandatory. Most of that money would have been sunk into the black hole that is the IT consultancy industry in the…

I mean, a friend of mine was recently travelling through the Netherlands and asked some police officers for directions, but because he didn't have ID with him he was arrested and put in a cell overnight.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#122

Post by Majromax » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

> Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company

That doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have a contract. Barring specific law regulating the form (such as often happens for property exchanges), the contract is sealed with acceptance. An act of acceptance can be overt such as via signature, but it can also be implied.

By returning the contract as if signed, performing the work specified under the contract, and receiving pay, both you and the employer are acting as if you both have accepted the contract. If a court was asked to adjudicate a dispute (such as over a termination issue like severance pay), a judge could reasonably hold you and the company bound to the terms.

> It must be the full document plaintext and date signed with your private key and should be verifiable with your public key by a court before a claim is even approachable.

Why? Most contract disputes don't turn on whether the text of the contract is authentic. That's resolved by a full PKI-based signature, but such a signature can't decide whether the interpretation of the terms is correct, or whether the contract has been performed, or whether the contract was signed under duress (perhaps making acceptance invalid), or whether the contract is conscionable and consistent with public policy.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#123

Post by voisin » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

> Many of the speakers, already busy studying COVID-19 and under pressure from the transition to remote teaching, did not notice these clauses. The pandemic “meant working 11 to 12 hours per day,” says another speaker, Johannes Müller, a mathematician at the Technical University of Munich. “The contract was unreadable [but] I eventually sent it.”

Maybe I am cold hearted, but I don’t feel any sympathy for their position. They were busy, so they should get out of the contract they willingly entered? These are educated adults that should have known better than to sign something without reading it.

Now the counter argument is that no one reads EULAs, but courts have held at common law that only abnormal clauses not in line with industry standards need to be highlighted to draw attention, or otherwise explicitly initialled. In this case based on at least one researcher asking if there were conference fees, it seems that there is at least some precedent for fees being charged to speakers (something that surprises me, but I guess it adds value to the speaker’s CV), so again, I have a really hard time feeling like this isn’t the result of a bunch of people not reading their contracts closely and treating their signature as something less valuable than it is - a binding commitment.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#124

Post by ljm » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

AlecSchueler wrote: post #121

ljm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, from the UK and remember all the fearmongering about ID cards being like a step back towards Nazi Germany and being asked to show your papers on the streets and all that. I think the real reason was that it sounded like it’d cost £60 (or close to that) per ID, which is pretty damn expensive when it’s mandatory. Most of that money would have been sunk into the black hole that is the IT consultancy industry in the…

I mean, a friend of mine was recently travelling through the Netherlands and asked some police officers for directions, but because he didn't have ID with him he was arrested and put in a cell overnight.

But this story lacks detail so either you can immediately jump to the conclusion that the police in the Netherlands are asking people for ID on the streets when they ask for directions, or you can maybe assume that your friend wasn’t being honest with you and was trying to save face, or something else entirely was going on.

Usually when you travel you keep at least one form of ID on you - probably not your passport but a local ID or driving license or something.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#125

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

bdjeudug wrote: post #8

baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

You’re intentionally returning unsigned contacts to employers hoping they don’t notice? Seeing how you’re first action in each of your new jobs is done in bad faith I think I see why you’ve had to fill out six of them…

[deleted]

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#126

Post by flir » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 5:59 PM UTC

Majromax wrote: post #122

baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

> Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company That doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have a contract. Barring specific law regulating the form (such as often happens for property exchanges), the contract is sealed with acceptance. An act of acceptance can be overt such as via signature, but it can also be implied. By returning the contract as…

Was going to say the same thing - doing the work is implicit acceptance of the contract, signature be damned. Verbal contracts are legally binding, after all (although hard to prove). (IANAL).

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#127

Post by JimtheCoder » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

"Fortunately this lead to their demise"

I hope you mean they just lost their job or something...

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#128

Post by Macha » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 6:43 PM UTC

noodlesUK wrote: post #73

ljm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t speak for every country in Europe but once you get a national ID or residence permit in some of them then the card will contain a chip with a certificate that can be used for public key crypto. If you need to sign something then you sign it with your ID. Same ID can get you into your accounts online. No different to Estonia’s digital ID scheme a decade ago.

The UK and Ireland are uniquely countries in Europe that don’t have any form of national ID card. The UK was going to get (continental) EU style ID cards in 2008-2010 but this proved to be rather controversial at the time due to perceptions of government overreach and dragnet biometrics. Instead of just doing a simple ID card with just facial biometrics (like a passport), the whole project was scrapped. I don’t know…

> I don’t know why Ireland doesn’t have them but they have derogations from all the EU laws about it, though their passport card is essentially an EU ID card complete with chip.

Due to the track record of the RIC, the British police prior to independence (and something that continued in NI until the 90s with the RUCs to keep the idea fresh), there is decently strong opposition to ID cards on the idea that police could demand them to harass people. It's also why most Gardai (Irish police officers) are unarmed, though I think the rising perception of petty crime in Dublin has swung the pendulum somewhat on that topic.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#129

Post by tylerhou » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

DarkmSparks wrote: post #58

Putting aside any ethics questions. Sounds like the guys on their way to court did actually sign the contracts. Not sure there is much get out clause for them tbh, Im not aware of any court anywhere that will take "didnt read the contract" as a get out of jail free card. Always read the contract kids.

You can’t just put anything in a contract and expect a court to unconditionally enforce it. If an included clause is unreasonable and clearly in bad faith (like a buried fee, written in words instead of numbers), a court can choose to annul it. The legal system is run by humans, not robots. (This is also why smart contracts may not be so smart after all — computers can’t use common sense to mitigate unfair smart contracts.)

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#130

Post by gumby » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 7:26 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #59

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It must be the full document plaintext and date signed with your private key and should be verifiable with your public key by a court before a claim is even approachable. This is called a notary public. Its a routine requirement with immigration documents. .They can also certify copies as true. In UK for sone reason it costs over £100, and noone uses them, but in eastern europe its common and notarising documents i…

In the US, you usually just go into your bank branch. I'm not sure what the deal is if you don't have a local financial institution/lawyer/etc. (Exec admins are sometimes also notaries.)

Or call a mobile notary who will come to you.