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Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

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Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#11
Mirror of text from his email (Linux Kernel Mailing List (LKML) is under heavy load):

From Linus Torvalds Date Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:40:26 -0800 Subject Re: [PATCH] sysfs: Optionally count subdirectories to support buggy applications

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Eric W. Biederman ebiederm@xmission.com wrote:

> Keeping compatibility is easy enough that it looks like it is worth doing, but maintaining 30+ years of backwards compatibility

Stop right there.

This is not about some arbitrary "30-year backwards compatibility".

This is about your patch BREAKING EXISTING BINARIES.

So stop the f*&ing around already. The patch was shown to be broken, stop making excuses, and stop blathering.

End of story. Binary compatibility is more important than any of your patches. If you continue to argue anything else or making excuses, I'm going to ask people to just ignore your patches entirely.

Seriously. Binary compatibility is so important that I do not want to have anything to do with kernel developers who don't understand that importance. If you continue to pooh-pooh the issue, you only show yourself to be unreliable. Don't do it.

Dammit, I'm continually surprised by the idiots out there that don't understand that binary compatibility is one of the absolute top priorities. The only reason for an OS kernel existing in the first place is to serve user-space. The kernel has no relevance on its own. Breaking existing binaries - and then not acknowledging how horribly bad that was - is just about the worst offense any kernel developer can do.

Because that shows that they don't understand what the whole point of the kernel was after all. We're not masturbating around with some research project. We never were. Even when Linux was young, the whole and only point was to make a usable system. It's why it's not some crazy drug-induced microkernel or other random crazy thing.

Really.

                 Linus

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#15
post #3

The site is down, the content is (at least for me) not available in google cache, so I suppose it's the same for others as well. And yet it's the top story on HN right now. When do we start giving tl;dr's for the headlines? [EDIT] managed to find a mirror. This mail in the thread gives a bit more context: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1203.1/00446....

There's not even that much to TL;DR. Someone proposed a patch that would break binary compatibility. There was some argument about having to keep "30+ years of backwards compatibility."

Linus said the whole thing was dumb, the patch wasn't worth it, and that programs exist for users, so we can't just break things for the hell of it and expect people to use Linux.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#16
In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux?

Good luck.

If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work.

This isn't the fault of the kernel team though.

It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default option, but it makes the platform very hostile to closed source applications, particularly games.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#17

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

It makes it hostile to abandonware.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#18

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

Compare and contrast: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/24/45779...

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#19

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

If you want to be sure it'll work, you compile it statically, and waste a little bit of disk space and memory.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Programs exist for their users

#20

In my experience binary compatibility on linux is a train wreck. Ever tried to get a binary compiled 5 years ago to run on a fresh install of linux? Good luck. If you still have the specific version of every shared library that it loaded you might be able to get it to work. This isn't the fault of the kernel team though. It is probably to be expected on platforms in which distributing source code is the default optio…

It makes it hostile to abandonware.

Hostile to people who use their machines for Real Work.
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