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Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

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Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#61

Post by petesergeant »

jawns wrote: post #36
petesergeant wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. So you email it back without comment, which shows you received it and understood what it was, and then started work… I suspect that’s binding in many jurisdictions, and the lack of an actual signature is simply an inconvenience

What if they crossed out a few clauses and signed, and the employer never noticed. Are you saying that because they begin working for the company, that represents the company's tacit acceptance of the modifications to the contract?

I think you have a significantly bigger burden of proof to prove the other party had accepted it if you signed it and returned it having amended it without mentioning those changes in the email, and it would be much less clear cut. If you mentioned “here it is with a few small changes”, and you got back an email that said “received”, even if they didn’t explicitly ok the changes or sign it, and you started working, I think you’d be on much firmer ground though.

There’ll be explicit case law but it’ll come down to “would a reasonable person think the changes to the contract had been accepted”

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#62

Post by ghaff »

arcbyte wrote: post #48
EGreg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a handwritten signature prove anything? They are so easy to forge. I always wondered WHY ARE PEOPLE IN THE US ASKED TO SIGN A RECEIPT WHEN THEY PAY BY CREDIT CARD? I can draw literally any scraggles and they’ll accept it. Are they supposed to compare to the signature I put on my card?

The signature is just a physical manifesting of assent. It's presence is indicative that you've agreed to what you're signing. Signature comparison is a line of defense. More broadly, There's a whole set of practices that assume a relationship. You scoff at signatures, but in their heyday, my local banker knew me and knew my signature and he could spot a general forgery or even unusual patterns. Every economic transa…

Of course, even in large cities, IDs are not required for voting in many states. As you probably know, it's a very contentious topic.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#63

Post by Obscurity4340 »

baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

Sorry, what happened with your friend? They forged a digital signature for you and threw it in your face later or something? What was the context for all this?

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#64

Post by benj111 »

bdjeudug wrote: post #8
baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

You’re intentionally returning unsigned contacts to employers hoping they don’t notice? Seeing how you’re first action in each of your new jobs is done in bad faith I think I see why you’ve had to fill out six of them…

Have you actually worked for a company?

I doubt the parent did this in his first job, once you get to your 4th job, I can totally understand.

Plus why is it bad faith? The employee is presumably expected to read the contract, or should they just trust the employer? By the same token, the employer should be expected to check that the employee actually agrees to the terms.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#65

Post by noodlesUK »

ghaff wrote: post #45
MichaelZuo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A passport, or some other difficult-to-forge document, could be used right?

That's how it works in the US. You show the notary your passport or driver's license, they go "Yup, looks like you," you sign the doc in their presence, and they apply their stamp.

Yeah, but even notary seals are forged with alarming frequency. They are usually just a stamp after all.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#66

Post by Uvix »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #60
shortcake27 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only physically though. Many years ago, possessing the values on a passport constituted verification. This data was stored and after a significant number of leaks, this data alone was useless as it became public knowledge. The next step was requiring a photo of the document. The photos were stored, and after a significant number of leaks, the same thing happened. The next step was ID selfies. Then the same thing happ…

I assumed this was only in regards to higher value interactions where meeting in person always makes sense. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where such a high level of assurance for real identity verification is required but is not worthwhile to meet in person. Can you name a few examples?

Opening a new bank account or credit card. Starting remote employment with a company.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#67

Post by frankus »

DarkmSparks wrote: post #58

Putting aside any ethics questions. Sounds like the guys on their way to court did actually sign the contracts. Not sure there is much get out clause for them tbh, Im not aware of any court anywhere that will take "didnt read the contract" as a get out of jail free card. Always read the contract kids.

We need “anything sketchy about this 20-page contract” as a service (for something less than the cost of retaining a lawyer).

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#68

Post by noodlesUK »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #55
baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

> It must be the full document plaintext and date signed with your private key and should be verifiable with your public key by a court before a claim is even approachable. This is called a notary public. Its a routine requirement with immigration documents. .They can also certify copies as true. In UK for sone reason it costs over £100, and noone uses them, but in eastern europe its common and notarising documents i…

The UK is weird about this. Generally speaking you wouldn’t actually want to use a notary public, which is (in the UK) a very old profession regulated by the Church of England. Most of the time, you will have a solicitor certify documents. This is much cheaper, and is what is usually used by large organisations who already have engagements with law firms. In Scotland, solicitors are able to get a special smart card to certify and sign documents.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#69

Post by taneq »

baz00 wrote: post #2

Someone did this recently to me i.e. showed me something I'd signed which I didn't. Fortunately this lead to their demise as I am friends with their manager which was unknown by the party in question. Historically I tend to try something on with employment contracts too - I return an unsigned copy to the company. Only 1 out of 6 companies I worked for didn't just stick it in a filing cabinet and forget about it. Ulti…

> Ultimately I learned that a signature is definitely not proof that someone explicitly signed anything or what the state was at the point of signing it.

I've wondered about this from the first moment I scanned a copy of my signature to feed in to Acrobat for signing PDFs. There seems to still be an unreasonable amount of trust in the idea that a squiggle on paper is difficult for other people to reproduce. But then, it's never been about preventing forgery, because forgery has always been relatively simple. Signatures are just a ritual performed between honest people to help them remember that they're honest.

Re: Scientists hit with massive bills after speaking at COVID-19 ‘webinars’

#70

Post by ghaff »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #60
shortcake27 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only physically though. Many years ago, possessing the values on a passport constituted verification. This data was stored and after a significant number of leaks, this data alone was useless as it became public knowledge. The next step was requiring a photo of the document. The photos were stored, and after a significant number of leaks, the same thing happened. The next step was ID selfies. Then the same thing happ…

I assumed this was only in regards to higher value interactions where meeting in person always makes sense. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where such a high level of assurance for real identity verification is required but is not worthwhile to meet in person. Can you name a few examples?

Sure. I do stuff with my family's broker in the Philadelphia area who I've never met in person all the time. During COVID, my local broker let me do a big transfer without going into a (probably closed) office--admittedly to another broker who I had transferred to before.

In general, I rarely do anything related to financial accounts in person.

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