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Time to bring back asylums?

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Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#281

Post by bobsmooth »

hayst4ck wrote: post #216
imgabe wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you must imagine that you will be subjected to asylums as they existed. No you don't. Nobody is advocating for that. Nobody is saying we should follow the same broken standards that led to locking up people for protesting, or that we should allow abuse and rape. Do you not think there is any middle ground between raping protestors and letting people with violent schizophrenia live in a tent on the street?

I think when you look at history it doesn't predict the future, but it tells you what is possible. What we had is possible, it did happen. Why? What was the system of alignments and incentives that led to that being the case, and how are we different now? I do think that if you want to bring back asylums, a place to lock away people who are too expensive or are otherwise uneconomical to treat, you must have an answer…

>a place to lock away people who are too expensive or are otherwise uneconomical to treat

Asylums are where people are treated, as opposed to the streets where they're a threat to themselves and everyone around them.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#282

Post by bobsmooth »

harimau777 wrote: post #163
imgabe wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think they're suddenly going to put homosexuality and BDSM back in the DSM-4 and lock people up for it? I mean, you look at the current political climate and you believe that is a thing that could actually happen when the White House is hosting a Pride parade? There are real people getting assaulted and murdered by the mentally ill right now. Not to mention the mentally ill themselves who are subject to violen…

I have ZERO doubt that the Ron DeSantis' of the world would try to lock up LGBTQ people. It's honestly hard for me to imagine anyone not thinking that people like him would try to do it.

Did Trump do it? Is Ron worse than Trump?

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#283

Post by vasco »

coldtea wrote: post #56
iancmceachern wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really at all. In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. We need a way to pay the people that do the work, buy the buildings, keep the lights on. We call this infrastructure asylums, whatever you want to call it we need it desperately. If you want to stop things like what you cited from happening, lobb…

> In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. Maybe that's putting the cart before the horse? How about what is needed is changing the conditions in society, workplace, and culture, so that fewer people end up "mentally ill", and those that are environmentally or genetically mentally ill do not get broken an…

Nobody knows what parts of society and culture create more mental illness. Some people will tell you they have the cure for the problems with our culture, but I disagree with most that proclaim to have the answer.

You don't even have the answer, you're just listing the effects and stating they are bad and that we should not have them. No shit, the problem is what to change and what the effect will be.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#284

Post by defrost »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #274
vore wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... why? Why can't we also build more affordable housing as well instead of just making rich people enclaves? If you're forcing all the low income people to live in one place, that is clearly not good for class mobility at all.

You're talking about people who work -- the homeless, well, the chronically homeless, are people who don't work.

Nationally (for the USofA),

    About 53 percent of the sheltered homeless had formal labor market earnings in the year they were observed as homeless, and the authors’ find that 40.4 percent of the unsheltered population had at least some formal employment in the year they were observed as homeless.
( any year twixt 2011 – 2018 )

    This finding contrasts with stereotypes of people experiencing homelessness as too lazy to work or incapable of doing so.
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/insight/research-summary/learning-a...

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#285

Post by bobsmooth »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #7

It’s time to make money appear out of nowhere, ignore the long history of abuses in such places, and pretend the courts are going to do a 180 and suddenly allow what was unconstitutional before.

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2023/03/16/governor-newsom-announces-...

Instead of throwing away money how about we treat the underlying mental illness?

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#286

Post by katbyte »

nradov wrote: post #264
mlyle wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is an ER fundamentally so much more expensive than another office visit? Two main reasons: you need to use personnel, equipment, and rooms that can offer the highest levels of care. And you need to pay for having a facility staffed to handle worst case loading (with triage) 24/7. You also tend to have pretty exhaustive testing on the "emergent" side to make sure everything is immediately OK prior to discharge.

Right, and ERs also charge high prices to insured patients in an attempt to recoup losses from treating uninsured patients (including those with serious chronic mental disorders).

Even here in Canada where all citizens generally have insurance ER visits are still far more expensive then if a patient visits a primary care provider or has has any sort of care before the issue takes them to the ER

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#287

Post by SamReidHughes »

defrost wrote: post #284
SamReidHughes wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about people who work -- the homeless, well, the chronically homeless, are people who don't work.

Nationally (for the USofA), About 53 percent of the sheltered homeless had formal labor market earnings in the year they were observed as homeless, and the authors’ find that 40.4 percent of the unsheltered population had at least some formal employment in the year they were observed as homeless. ( any year twixt 2011 – 2018 ) This finding contrasts with stereotypes of people experiencing homelessness as too lazy to…

Hence my original post...

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#288

Post by bobsmooth »

thebooktocome wrote: post #135
baremetal wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The Nuremberg Code is about medical experimentation, not vaccination programs. The Nuremberg Code is not really relevant to modern medical ethics, or even to the history of medical ethics--its authors plagiarized [1] half of it from the 1931 Guidelines for Human Experimentation [2]. The relevant standard these days is the seventh revision of the Declaration of Helsinki, by the World Medical Association. No, the use o…

I like that the difference between war crime and perfectly acceptable is a rubber stamp. Not like the covid vaccine was in any way rushed.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#289

Post by katbyte »

graeme wrote: post #119
phatskat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or make healthcare accessible. Make housing accessible. Make food accessible. We can house feed and care for every person on the planet but we don’t because money. A made up concept that has no actual value outside of what we place on it. It’s arbitrary, as much as markets would want us to believe otherwise. As a species we choose to let them have that power, and with it they will kill us all (seriously)

In Canada we have free health care and a similar homelessness situation as in the US. USA 17.5 per 10K Canada 10 per 10K Americans like to think that universal health care solves every problem but it really doesn’t. It’s a good system and helps many things but not a panacea.

Almost half isn’t what I’d call similar..

That said healthcare isn’t housing, addiction services, or mental health services.

Re: Time to bring back asylums?

#290

Post by phatskat »

c22 wrote: post #199
phatskat wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off there’s lots of housing or housable space - office buildings with tons of vacant rooms, Airbnb style properties that are just profit machines, hotels rarely at capacity, abandoned or unaffordable houses, vacation homes. There’s plenty of housing. Then let’s talk about restaurants and grocery stores and farms and factories where food is routinely thrown away daily. Can’t let employees take food home from the…

All the excess you cite is a result of this (albeit flawed) capitalist system we live with. I believe there will come a time where it is no longer necessary, but this will require levels of cooperation, education, and coordination that we are not nearly prepared to handle as a species. For what it's worth, I worked for a while at a fast food joint that did allow employees to take food home, or to make extra of it and…

I may be fretting over capitalism, but I think I do so with justification. I can’t say which system would be better, but I see the one destroying the planet and creating an arbitrary system of haves and have nots where two of the largest factors in whether you have a comfortable life are who your parents are and where your born - it’s a crapshoot.

> All the excess you cite is a result of this (albeit flawed) capitalist system we live with.

My original point was responding to the bemoaning that we don’t have enough resources for everyone. Well we do, they just get wasted. We’d still have those resources or at least the ability to create them under any other system.

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