Time to bring back asylums?
51–60 of 397 posts
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#52Clearly HN does not seem to like this idea so much. But I do have to ask, what exactly do you propose as a solution to the massive, growing hordes of drug addicted zombies in west coast cities? You can't tell me that this problem doesn't exist, anyone who's been to a west coast city knows it's very real. The past 20 years of the "compassion" approach or whatever is clearly a total disaster. At what point do we just s…
Jail. Asylums circumvent due process as other commentators have pointed out. Jails should be staffed with a physician who has the discretion to transfer inmates to treatment centers.
Leave it to an HN commenter to suggest that a marginalized group face the most draconian, outlandish, unrealistic proposition as a viable solution.
Might as well propose that we eat the homeless and mentally ill. Then we can complete the Jonathan Swift proposal and go back to the real world.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#53Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#54Asylums still exist. What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. A typical case from this time[1]: > [Cramer] frankly discusses the “regimented, often hopeless conditions of state mental hospitals”, talks about a hospital in Alabama where “care was worse than simply inadequate: one psychiatrist for 5000 patients; astonishingly low funding…
> What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse.
Yes. This is what we need; the fact is, many mentally ill individuals need help, but are not capable of realizing that they need help, and will refuse any attempt to offer it. Without the power to detain such an individual against their will, that person will remain on the streets, which is a worse outcome for both that person and also everyone else.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#55A person does not belong to society or to the government. Sane or not, a person who chooses to not get mental, physical or preventive treatment (like vaccines) or other social manadates should not be compelled because humans lack the authority to do so. What should happen is they should be expelled from society. Expulsion was very common in historical societies. The famous version of this is leper colonies. The land…
> A person does not belong to society or to the government.
Then.....
> In communist governments for example, people are subjucts of the state and the state assumes authority even over what people belief.
That is a false dichotomy.
Who does a person belong too?
We are nothing without our communities. Naked apes at the mercy of fate.
It is our communities that make us able to survive. Our families, neighbors, friends, foes, we are all in it together. Bonds of love and mutual obligation
Supporting each other, meeting the needs of others and having our needs met does not mean we live in North Korea
Mutual aid is not the end of individual liberty. It is the engine that makes it possible
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#56Asylums still exist. What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. A typical case from this time[1]: > [Cramer] frankly discusses the “regimented, often hopeless conditions of state mental hospitals”, talks about a hospital in Alabama where “care was worse than simply inadequate: one psychiatrist for 5000 patients; astonishingly low funding…
Not really at all. In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. We need a way to pay the people that do the work, buy the buildings, keep the lights on. We call this infrastructure asylums, whatever you want to call it we need it desperately. If you want to stop things like what you cited from happening, lobb…
>In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities.
Maybe that's putting the cart before the horse?
How about what is needed is changing the conditions in society, workplace, and culture, so that fewer people end up "mentally ill", and those that are environmentally or genetically mentally ill do not get broken and marginalized and have their conditions gravely worsen, as do their "solutions" (from isolation, homelessness and living on the margins, to drug abuse, murders, or even mass shootings)?
(Wow, downvotes. Fixing the cause as opposed to a band-aid is controversial. Well, I guess you get the society you deserve).
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really at all. In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. We need a way to pay the people that do the work, buy the buildings, keep the lights on. We call this infrastructure asylums, whatever you want to call it we need it desperately. If you want to stop things like what you cited from happening, lobb…
>In a sentence, we need a public infrastructure in place to care for the mentally ill that currently are forced to live on the streets of our major cities. Your feelings, whatever they are, that lead you to your opinions, political principles, or ethics, are inherently immune to being invalidated by others. However, it makes me nervous to read comments such as yours, because my first reaction is that I can't tell wha…
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Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't deny that homelessness is a problem, please re-read my comment. Perhaps I've been "screaming the tune" for a decade but in that time the cost of housing has gone up dramatically. In 2009 I rented a 2-br apartment in Capitol Hill for $1,600 -- parking included. In 2019 I rented a studio apartment in the same neighborhood for the same -- parking not included. I can produce examples like this all day. My point…
We’re clearly not talking about the same problem. There isn’t a direct line from you not being able to find the same square footage for $1600 in 2019 as you did in 2009, and you winding up as a hopeless drug addict in Cal Anderson. I’m all for draconian policies to address rising housing costs (such a extreme excise taxes on vacant units, of which there are a lot in Seattle and Portland), but that doesn’t have anythi…
> There isn’t a direct line from you not being able to find the same square footage for $1600 in 2019 as you did in 2009, and you winding up as a hopeless drug addict in Cal Anderson
Yes. There. Is.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#59Clearly HN does not seem to like this idea so much. But I do have to ask, what exactly do you propose as a solution to the massive, growing hordes of drug addicted zombies in west coast cities? You can't tell me that this problem doesn't exist, anyone who's been to a west coast city knows it's very real. The past 20 years of the "compassion" approach or whatever is clearly a total disaster. At what point do we just s…
What I read from that post is that you are outraged, or acting outraged, and want to abuse other people as a result. It's hard to find any specific argument in the comment otherwise.
> The past 20 years of the "compassion" approach
According to research, the problem is rising housing prices, not compassion. Human rights are also not compassion. It's sick how trendy it is to disdain compassion, human rights, and any other good.
You seem like more of a danger than the many unhoused people I've encountered -- including people I talked to last night and this afternoon, people I see every day. They aren't talking about locking up everyone like you - which I personally think would be a better step for society. (Don't worry; unlike you I don't think I should have the power to lock up people because of my personal feelings.)
You may laugh it off, but that shows the reason behind your proposal. You have more power than they do, so if you don't like them you abuse them. They same goes for the WSJ.
Re: Time to bring back asylums?
#60Asylums still exist. What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. A typical case from this time[1]: > [Cramer] frankly discusses the “regimented, often hopeless conditions of state mental hospitals”, talks about a hospital in Alabama where “care was worse than simply inadequate: one psychiatrist for 5000 patients; astonishingly low funding…
> What this person wants to bring back is the ability to lock people up and keep people locked up there with little recourse. Yes. This is what we need; the fact is, many mentally ill individuals need help, but are not capable of realizing that they need help, and will refuse any attempt to offer it. Without the power to detain such an individual against their will, that person will remain on the streets, which is a…
The issue is that when you carve out exceptions to human rights, they get abused.
If you can suspend the rights of someone declared mentally ill, the unscrupulous parts of government will be tempted to declare politically inconvenient people mentally ill and strip them of their rights. Even in the United States, this happened during the suffragette movement; those women hunger striking for the vote were sometimes imprisoned in asylums for hysteria.