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How professional ethics work

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Re: How professional ethics work

#31

Post by titanomachy »

version_five wrote: post #28
titanomachy wrote: post #23

I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer can't just replace you with someone who will do the unethical thing that they want. In my opinion, it is probably still worth refusing to build things that violate your personal ethics. You will sleep better at night, and you will introduce friction to doing un…

In engineering (electrical, mechanical, civil) we have professional licensure[0]. It doesn't mean you can't design an electric system without a license. It means you can't represent yourself as an engineer, nor can you stamp engineering drawings. There are some legal situations, particularly building / structural where stamped drawings are needed, and so only a P.Eng can do that. But if it's say designing a circuit b…

I'm aware that "software engineer" as a regulated profession exists in Canada. The only consequence that I'm aware of is that tech companies in Canada call their engineers "software developers" instead. In years of working in tech I've never had a coworker who was a licensed Software Engineer.

All I'm saying is that it's unlikely that the bulk of activity we currently think of as "software engineering" will someday full under a level of professional regulation comparable to surgeons, pilots, or civil engineers.

Re: How professional ethics work

#32

Post by OkayPhysicist »

alphazard wrote: post #26

Licensure is a natural response to LLMs making code generation easier. People want to protect their jobs and AI is coming for them. Creating a regulatory cartel let's some in-group become "the real engineers" who are able to approve the output of LLMs, or other "non-engineers". All this under the auspices of "ethics", which as a reminder, is just an arbitrary set of rules which someone is trying to pass off as having…

As the article clearly lays out, there's no need for profession ethical considerations to be "of divine origin". It's simply a set of rules which an entire industry can hold as superseding the whims of the flunkies with MBAs that write our paychecks.

Re: How professional ethics work

#33

Post by dsr_ »

alphazard wrote: post #26

Licensure is a natural response to LLMs making code generation easier. People want to protect their jobs and AI is coming for them. Creating a regulatory cartel let's some in-group become "the real engineers" who are able to approve the output of LLMs, or other "non-engineers". All this under the auspices of "ethics", which as a reminder, is just an arbitrary set of rules which someone is trying to pass off as having…

Ethics doesn't require a divine origin. You're thinking of morals.

Re: How professional ethics work

#35

Post by version_five »

biomcgary wrote: post #29
titanomachy wrote: post #23

I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer can't just replace you with someone who will do the unethical thing that they want. In my opinion, it is probably still worth refusing to build things that violate your personal ethics. You will sleep better at night, and you will introduce friction to doing un…

First, they came for C compilers and you said nothing. Then, they came for Python interpreters and you said nothing. Now that they are coming for Excel, who will defend you?

You're making a joke, but when you look at what's happening with software licenses (mostly in AI) that restrict uses to those that the releasing companies deem appropriate (such as nonsensically no use in the nuclear industry) it's only a matter of time until political completely creeps into the software supply chain and all your python packages will have their own specific political list of what you can and can't do with them.

Minimizing dependencies is going to become increasingly important.

Re: How professional ethics work

#36

Post by sys_64738 »

version_five wrote: post #28
titanomachy wrote: post #23

I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer can't just replace you with someone who will do the unethical thing that they want. In my opinion, it is probably still worth refusing to build things that violate your personal ethics. You will sleep better at night, and you will introduce friction to doing un…

In engineering (electrical, mechanical, civil) we have professional licensure[0]. It doesn't mean you can't design an electric system without a license. It means you can't represent yourself as an engineer, nor can you stamp engineering drawings. There are some legal situations, particularly building / structural where stamped drawings are needed, and so only a P.Eng can do that. But if it's say designing a circuit b…

I'm not sure what the regulated discipline of SW engineering is. For sure, writing software out with this is not real engineering and shouldn't be called such. I would never call myself a SW engineer as I'm not a real engineer.

Re: How professional ethics work

#37

Post by titanomachy »

biomcgary wrote: post #29
titanomachy wrote: post #23

I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer can't just replace you with someone who will do the unethical thing that they want. In my opinion, it is probably still worth refusing to build things that violate your personal ethics. You will sleep better at night, and you will introduce friction to doing un…

First, they came for C compilers and you said nothing. Then, they came for Python interpreters and you said nothing. Now that they are coming for Excel, who will defend you?

Whoa, is that a boolean "AND" in your search query?? I'm going to need to see your license.

Re: How professional ethics work

#38

Post by [deleted] »

titanomachy wrote: post #23

I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer can't just replace you with someone who will do the unethical thing that they want. In my opinion, it is probably still worth refusing to build things that violate your personal ethics. You will sleep better at night, and you will introduce friction to doing un…

[deleted]

Re: How professional ethics work

#39

Post by version_five »

titanomachy wrote: post #31
version_five wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In engineering (electrical, mechanical, civil) we have professional licensure[0]. It doesn't mean you can't design an electric system without a license. It means you can't represent yourself as an engineer, nor can you stamp engineering drawings. There are some legal situations, particularly building / structural where stamped drawings are needed, and so only a P.Eng can do that. But if it's say designing a circuit b…

I'm aware that "software engineer" as a regulated profession exists in Canada. The only consequence that I'm aware of is that tech companies in Canada call their engineers "software developers" instead. In years of working in tech I've never had a coworker who was a licensed Software Engineer. All I'm saying is that it's unlikely that the bulk of activity we currently think of as "software engineering" will someday f…

Yes I agree, and to a large extent (from what I know) creating that designation was marketing from universities.

To be a licensed engineer in Canada you need the degree and then 4 years' experience working under licensed P.Eng which in software is basically impossible. So most people would have the degree but never apply for licensure.

Re: How professional ethics work

#40

Post by _fbpp »

alphazard wrote: post #26

Licensure is a natural response to LLMs making code generation easier. People want to protect their jobs and AI is coming for them. Creating a regulatory cartel let's some in-group become "the real engineers" who are able to approve the output of LLMs, or other "non-engineers". All this under the auspices of "ethics", which as a reminder, is just an arbitrary set of rules which someone is trying to pass off as having…

All this under the auspices of "ethics", which as a reminder, is just an arbitrary set of rules which someone is trying to pass off as having a divine origin.

They are arbitrary only in the sense that, sans a religion's God laying down ethics from on high, all ethics are arbitrary human creation.

But we care about ethics all the same. Engineers care about ethics because if they do not, they kill people. Civil engineers care because faulty work kills people. Electrical engineers care because faulty work kills people. Mechanical engineers care because faulty work kills people.

And as software engineers, we should care because our careless work kills people.

And if we do not care, the government will force our hand. And they will not listen to pleas for them to be reasonable.

Software engineers abused people's personal data, the EU's GDPR has outlawed using all but the absolute minimum personal data. Meta has been told in court by the CJEU that advertising is not an acceptable use of personal data, even if needed to pay the bills. Ad-tech is a doomed industry.

So it's your choice. Start caring about ethics. Or the government locks our field in so much regulatory gridlock that you will wish they just outlawed it entirely.

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