When I was at Amazon, the newly hired team lead was incompetent and insecure, so this person ruled the team by fear - PIP'ed people trigger happy (myself included). HR did nothing, even though this was a recurring behavior even after I left. It was just flagged, that is not possible to PIP people without actual prior performance issues and informal conversations to address them. Fast forward to today - the person is still there and eventually was promoted. In EU, where labour laws are much stronger it's not as effective, but it's pretty much a one way ticket.
Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
61–70 of 76 posts
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#62I only learned about what is a Performamce Improvement Plan (PIP) from managerial training at my BigCorp. Assuming it works pretty consistently across the industry, a PIP basically means you are slated to be fired. Circumstances may change, and by all means pay attention to and try to improve the metrics they ask you to improve, but don't hold any illusions. You are almost certainly leaving that job in the next year…
My advice is to let them fire you. Waste the managers time until the last day so that they suffer during that time as well.
Once you are fired, you can apply for unemployment benefits which is paid for by the insurance of that company.
If they are not willing to treat employees humanely, it is fair game for employees to not be honest with them.
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Firing versus resignation makes no real difference. In my experience, it makes a very large difference. > It's easy to stay where you're not wanted I think this depends on personality. It would be unbelievably difficult for me.
At least in the circles I work in, nobody does reference checks and the previous employer is limited to verifying that you worked there (not the reason you were let go) and if somebody asked, I'd just say (which seems to be the case here) that the company was downsizing and I was one of the people selected for being laid off. For example, all those folks fired by Twitter... it would be silly to think that they weren'…
Well, I'm cursed by honesty. I'm not going to say anything untrue to a potential employer. It doesn't matter if anyone's checking or not.
being laid off is a totally different thing from being fired, though. I assume people who are laid off won't say "I got fired", but "I got laid off". The two things have very different implications.
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagree- you should stay until they fire you, collecting salary in the meantime while not working (except to study for a new job). It's basically getting paid not to work and they've already established you have until the end of the pip period.
Agree. Stop being productive until the lay you off. Then take the severance and once you've used that milk unemployment insurance for as long as you can. Start a new job fresh and relaxed.
This is the way. You are not obligated to grind your life for an employer that treats you so badly. Milk them for money.
Bonus points, use the time to make the manager's life miserable.
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#65This guys boss picked him to be on the performance improvement plan. Even if his boss was forced to pick someone because of quota, the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance. My advice would be to be humble enough to admit that the performance can be improved and take ownership of that fact and not make excuses like " my boss put me on notice because of a quota, i g…
> the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance
Except, OP said that the boss chose him because he had the least amount of tenure ( 3 years for everyone else).
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
At least in the circles I work in, nobody does reference checks and the previous employer is limited to verifying that you worked there (not the reason you were let go) and if somebody asked, I'd just say (which seems to be the case here) that the company was downsizing and I was one of the people selected for being laid off. For example, all those folks fired by Twitter... it would be silly to think that they weren'…
Well, I'm cursed by honesty. I'm not going to say anything untrue to a potential employer. It doesn't matter if anyone's checking or not. being laid off is a totally different thing from being fired, though. I assume people who are laid off won't say "I got fired", but "I got laid off". The two things have very different implications.
Absolutely honest is a curse, because it's self-defeating. I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical, but I don't think you are obliged to "tell the detailed truth" in a job interview. As a counterargument, a potential future coworker of mine had their offer rescinded after a background check determined they had worked for several companies known to steal IP, but left that off their resume.
At least in my case, saying you got fired has zero implications. I've been close to being fired before, and the reasons were bogus- but there's no way to communicate that without a hiring agent being biased (incorrectly) against you. And I don't know that there truly is a difference, legally speaking, in terms of "being fired" or "laid off". You got terminated either way.
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. I'm never been PIP'd myself, but I've seen it happen to many -- and it's never resulted in anything good, nor has it ever seemed as if the purpose was actually to improve anyone's performance. It's usually seems like just a thing that has to be done before you can fire them. Even when the PIP'd employee isn't fired, the PIP remains a scarlet letter on them for the rest of their time at that company. I'm…
I think it's a last resort for someone who isn't listening to a specific feedback well, it requires the manager (IME) to be crystal clear on what's not working well, and how they can improve it. And to follow up on in some cadence (every 3 days) with notes, laser focused. Giving an amount of time for the person to show they can and want to change. In one of the cases the person who got pip'd got promoted to Staff Eng…
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Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's a last resort for someone who isn't listening to a specific feedback well, it requires the manager (IME) to be crystal clear on what's not working well, and how they can improve it. And to follow up on in some cadence (every 3 days) with notes, laser focused. Giving an amount of time for the person to show they can and want to change. In one of the cases the person who got pip'd got promoted to Staff Eng…
> think it's a last resort for someone who isn't listening to a specific feedback well Pretty much this at least when I've used it. What was surprising was I had an employee do a complete 180 when put on a PIP. They had been given lots of feedback, clear guidance, and even a direct, "we've talked about this, and it's putting your job in jeopardy, if this continues you will be fired" conversation prior to the PIP. I h…
You and aprdm have given me a little bit of hope that some larger tech employers (I assume you're both with larger employers as I've never heard of a small employer that did PIPs) are decent when it comes to this sort of thing. It's good to know. Thank you.
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disagree- you should stay until they fire you, collecting salary in the meantime while not working (except to study for a new job). It's basically getting paid not to work and they've already established you have until the end of the pip period.
Agree. Stop being productive until the lay you off. Then take the severance and once you've used that milk unemployment insurance for as long as you can. Start a new job fresh and relaxed.
Good lord. There's no way I could behave this way. I guess I'm just not mercenary enough.
Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, I'm cursed by honesty. I'm not going to say anything untrue to a potential employer. It doesn't matter if anyone's checking or not. being laid off is a totally different thing from being fired, though. I assume people who are laid off won't say "I got fired", but "I got laid off". The two things have very different implications.
Absolutely honest is a curse, because it's self-defeating. I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical, but I don't think you are obliged to "tell the detailed truth" in a job interview. As a counterargument, a potential future coworker of mine had their offer rescinded after a background check determined they had worked for several companies known to steal IP, but left that off their resume. At least in m…
You can be perfectly honest while still putting things in the best possible light, and without divulging everything (although lying by omission is still lying).
> I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical
I thought you were advocating being deceptive. My apologies.
I try to be honest for ethical reasons, but being scrupulously honest (at least the best I can be as a fallible human being) has also served me very, very well in my career. I am quite certain I wouldn't have succeeded nearly to the degree I have if I weren't. So I recommend it very much.
It has, at times, caused me some loss, but the gains I've got from the habit have more than offset those.
> And I don't know that there truly is a difference, legally speaking, in terms of "being fired" or "laid off".
I wasn't saying there's a legal difference, I was saying there's a difference in the impression it makes on people. If you've been laid off, it was probably because of business considerations outside of your control. If you were fired, it was probably because of some sort of misbehavior on your part.
But if you say you were laid off when you were fired for cause, that's lying.