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Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

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Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#51

Post by IX-103 »

ckrapu wrote: post #19

When I think about carbon extraction and storage, I get the same feeling as when I read about the ancients discovering oil seeps and surface deposits of hydrocarbons. They knew that they could be harnessed for keeping fires lit and even sometimes associated them with the supernatural. They just lacked the tech and industrial background to use them. We know that carbon is essential for life and if we ever engineer use…

I don't see how "carbon will be one of the main limiting factors". Carbon is abundant in our environment -- it's around 0.03% of it and is spread evenly enough that you can always find it. It's even relatively common in the universe.

What is hard to find - and has always been hard to find is cheap energy. And carbon dioxide is essentially the lowest energy state for carbon. It's a dead end as far as energy goes. That's why it's a waste product.

If you want to build useful structures then you're still subject to thermodynamics, whether you're using "organisms" to do it or not. So using graphite or any other form of carbon would be a better source of carbon than CO2. The only reason to use CO2 is that it is commonly available (which is why plants use it).

And again, no one is proposing removing all the CO2, just enough to keep us in this little ice age we have been enjoying. So there's no reason to worry about running out.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#52

Post by csnover »

azinman2 wrote: post #11
throwaway33381 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds more like an excuse to continue to output oil while doing absolutely nothing to stop the further degradation of out environment.

It shouldn’t be a surprise. They’re an oil and gas company, with gigantic investments in that space, a culture that supports it, knowledge to do it, politics solved for it, and a crap ton of inertia. The expectation that they’d pivot is far less likely than likely. This isn’t a sector known for disruption outside of new ways to extract.

The insane thing about this is to me that Exxon did seem to have ideas about pivoting away from oil and gas in the 1970s[0]. They funded research that brought down the cost of solar panels five-fold and started manufacturing and selling their own panels[1], they developed the lithium-ion battery[2], and they created subsidiaries for servicing the nuclear power industry[3], among other things.

I’ve never understood the obstructionist position of these oil execs. If you want to make a shitload of money, why not push for development of some emerging industry like renewables where all the infrastructure has to be built up from nothing? That could be money you are getting paid to build it. Instead, now it’s money going to some other company.

[0] https://www.desmog.com/s1ep1-bell-labs-energy/

[1] https://www.npr.org/2019/09/30/763844598/how-big-oil-of-the-...

[2] https://www.bupipedream.com/news/49390/prof-whittingham/

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/1976/03/14/archives/exxons-innovativ...

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#53

Post by IX-103 »

jansan wrote: post #43
Kye wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know basically nothing about the ocean other than it's where almost all our oxygen comes from, and we have no way to know what the tipping point is. Assuming we're too small to affect the environment is how we got here. And we know from effects of climate change above the surface that it doesn't have to be cataclysmic to cause trouble. There could be all kinds of nasty things in store that are even harder to predi…

That sounds like "I just don't want that!". We don't need a map to know how dissolved CO2 influences acidity of sea water. Trust the science, bro.

"Trust the science, bro."

There is much more involved than how dissolved CO2 affects ocean acidity. CO2 has a number of other affects on both biological and chemical systems that shift equilibriums. Understanding how injecting CO2 would affect deep ocean ecosystems (and indirectly upper ocean layers and climate through layer interchange) when we only have a rudimentary understanding of the deep sea ecosystem is not a matter of science. It's the realm of prophecy and hubris.

I'm not saying that deep-water injections of CO2 are dangerous. But that at the current level of science we don't even know what we don't know about the possible affects that would have. And with the large amounts of energy required to sequester and pump carbon dioxide into the sea, it would be best if we understood the costs as well as the benefits of such an approach before we started.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#54

Post by teddyh »

csnover wrote: post #52
azinman2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn’t be a surprise. They’re an oil and gas company, with gigantic investments in that space, a culture that supports it, knowledge to do it, politics solved for it, and a crap ton of inertia. The expectation that they’d pivot is far less likely than likely. This isn’t a sector known for disruption outside of new ways to extract.

The insane thing about this is to me that Exxon did seem to have ideas about pivoting away from oil and gas in the 1970s[0]. They funded research that brought down the cost of solar panels five-fold and started manufacturing and selling their own panels[1], they developed the lithium-ion battery[2], and they created subsidiaries for servicing the nuclear power industry[3], among other things. I’ve never understood th…

The first digital camera was (AFAIK) made by Kodak. The modern desktop computer was largely invented by Xerox. Both companies failed to follow through.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#55

Post by tim333 »

briantakita wrote: post #22
luhn wrote: post #4

> Exxon’s vision is that eventually these pipelines will ferry CO2 captured from industrial point sources like cement and steel plants, and potentially from natural gas power plants, and transport it to underground rock formations or old oil wells where it could be buried (Denbury also owns a number of large sites for carbon sequestration). Color me skeptical. The article offers no supporting evidence that this is Ex…

It looks like Exxon is pivoting to be an energy provider & owner of piping infrastructure, with petroleum products being a product line. The CO2 pipelines seem similar in infrastructure to oil pipelines. CO2 looks like a great opportunity for companies like Exxon to further consolidate the energy markets & gain entry into the heavily subsidized Carbon Capture market. They will gain tax funded & printed revenue as wel…

Along those lines there was an interesting article on 'white hydrogen' the other day. Apparently there are vast quantities of hydrogen underground which could be drilled for and piped in a manner similar to natural gas. https://archive.ph/3c7Hs

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#56

Post by dathos »

plagiarist wrote: post #48
mullingitover wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of Exxon becoming “net zero” is a howler and we can’t let them get away with it. We need to price the carbon emissions at the source. If they want to pass on the external carbon costs to their customers, so be it.

Stop making destruction of the ecosystem an economic externality? What's next, pricing human rights abuses to prevent US companies from profiting off of foreign slave labor?

I think you fail to realize how the profitability of this industry subsidizes a lot of issues that look to be crisises on their own. Plastics being too cheap to make so we don’t really do recycling or reducing to name one.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#57

Post by fwungy »

Climate Change is the essence of "Intractable Problems".

There is tremendous wealth in oil reserves that is outside the control of the G7 countries: Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia. There is also demand for this oil from non-G7 nations who simply don't have the money to go carbon free without descent into starvation, poverty and chaos.

Going carbon free on a big enough scale to impact the climate, according to existing models, requires getting these petroleum reserve holders to give up their massive wealth in exchange for little to nothing, and large developing economies to destabilize themselves to go carbon neutral.

IT ISN"T GOING TO HAPPEN.

Poor Indians and Chinese aren't going to give up their opportunity to secure better lives for themselves for the sake of the climate.

We need to be thinking in terms of mitigations and technologies that reduce climate impacts while being economically sensible.

Yes, it's not optimal, but choices made in the real world rarely are, and as adults we must learn to make them.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#58

Post by fwungy »

azinman2 wrote: post #11
throwaway33381 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds more like an excuse to continue to output oil while doing absolutely nothing to stop the further degradation of out environment.

It shouldn’t be a surprise. They’re an oil and gas company, with gigantic investments in that space, a culture that supports it, knowledge to do it, politics solved for it, and a crap ton of inertia. The expectation that they’d pivot is far less likely than likely. This isn’t a sector known for disruption outside of new ways to extract.

Private oil companies like Exxon are only about 10% of oil production. The biggies are the state oil companies, on which state wealth depends. They aren't going to give that up.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#59

Post by briantakita »

fwungy wrote: post #57

Climate Change is the essence of "Intractable Problems". There is tremendous wealth in oil reserves that is outside the control of the G7 countries: Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia. There is also demand for this oil from non-G7 nations who simply don't have the money to go carbon free without descent into starvation, poverty and chaos. Going carbon free on a big enough scale to impact the climate, according to existing mo…

> Going carbon free on a big enough scale to impact the climate, according to existing models, requires getting these petroleum reserve holders to give up their massive wealth in exchange for little to nothing, and large developing economies to destabilize themselves to go carbon neutral.

The climate will continue to change even if humanity goes carbon free. When it comes to climate, the only constant is change.

> Poor Indians and Chinese aren't going to give up their opportunity to secure better lives for themselves for the sake of the climate.

Or fall for the NeoColonialist trap of paying taxes to financial markets to "save the world". Instead, the producer nations will leverage their positions as commodities become more valuable.

Re: Exxon bets carbon will be the new oil

#60

Post by SoftTalker »

throw0101a wrote: post #2

Current refrigerants (e.g., R-410) have large global warming potentials (GWP) when they inevitably leak into the atmosphere, so there's a move to other chemicals. On of the leading contenders (at least in the commercial/industrial space) is actually CO2 (R-744): * https://www.hpacmag.com/features/co2-as-a-refrigerant-yesco2... * https://www.ohio.edu/mechanical/thermo/Applied/Chapt.7_11/Ch... * https://blog.isa.org/wh…

A disadvantage of CO2 as a refrigerant is the operating pressure required, much higher than CFC or HFC type refrigerants. This is probably not a big issue for industrial applications but for home and auto use it will probably affect cost and/or reliability.
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