Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota • Hacker News Board

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#41

Post by cstrahan » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 7:58 PM UTC

fourseventy wrote: post #20

This guys boss picked him to be on the performance improvement plan. Even if his boss was forced to pick someone because of quota, the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance. My advice would be to be humble enough to admit that the performance can be improved and take ownership of that fact and not make excuses like " my boss put me on notice because of a quota, i g…

Suppose his coworkers are all working unreasonably long hours (whether out of fear, or poor work-life balance, or whatever), and he’s “only” working 40-45 hours a week. His output could be excellent, but he’d still be on the chopping block, no?

I don’t think him being chosen to receive the boot necessarily means his performance was poor. I mean, maybe it was, but from the outside I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#42

Post by tonnydourado » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 7:58 PM UTC

freeopinion wrote: post #33

There are many businesses that could not define a PIP because they have no idea how to define performance. You can find one of these and hide for the rest of your career. If your PIP has milestones like 'write 10 emails per day' or 'participate in 10 hours of meetings per week', maybe you already found one of those companies. If you yourself struggle to define what 'performance' means in your job, isn't that a red fl…

> If you yourself struggle to define what 'performance' means in your job, isn't that a red flag all by itself?

No? How do you define the performance of a doctor? Nurse? Teacher? Developer? Tech Support?

Most of these roles have metrics that might seem like easy and foolproof ways to measure performance, but ask anyone that has actually worked any of these professions for more than 2 min, and you'll have endless tails of management fucking everything up by chasing a dumb number.

If your job matters in the slightest, it's not that rare for performance to be wildly elusive to measure.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#43

Post by JohnFen » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 7:59 PM UTC

fourseventy wrote: post #20

This guys boss picked him to be on the performance improvement plan. Even if his boss was forced to pick someone because of quota, the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance. My advice would be to be humble enough to admit that the performance can be improved and take ownership of that fact and not make excuses like " my boss put me on notice because of a quota, i g…

> the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance.

Perhaps, but the difference between the bottom of the pack and the top of the pack might be negligible. We don't know.

> My advice would be to be humble enough to admit that the performance can be improved and take ownership of that fact

Sure, that's fine, but I still think that the odds are he'd be better off if he quits as well.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#44

Post by pmyteh » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:01 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #29

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #21

This is a perfect example of why we need a union for tech engineers. The “if you were better” argument or other reasons that people in tech love to use doesn’t apply here - this is a pure capital Vs labor power dispute. This kind of bullshit and “sorry nothing I can do” response from a line manager is unacceptable to just be ok with - especially when it’s purely driven by rent seeking.

I've thought about building an international tech union, interfaced with via CLI. It would be so much fun (even the legal issues of having a union in so many countries)! Seriously, I'd love to do it, but I'm too broke to pull that one off -- I'd probably need millions just to get started.

There's a multinational seafarers' union called Nautilus International, so it's certainly possible. I don't know if in practice it's three national unions in a tight federation, though. A lot of labour law is national.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#45

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

ablatt89 wrote: post #24

fourseventy wrote: post #20

This guys boss picked him to be on the performance improvement plan. Even if his boss was forced to pick someone because of quota, the fact that he was picked must mean he was at the bottom of the pack in terms of performance. My advice would be to be humble enough to admit that the performance can be improved and take ownership of that fact and not make excuses like " my boss put me on notice because of a quota, i g…

PIPs are used as tools to lay people off or get revenge often. It's not meant to be an actual "performance improvement plan." There's many stories of people hitting all requirements within the PIP to still not hit "the bar" due to a constantly arbitrary and changing PIP requirement. PIP is often a cowardice way to do layoffs or for upper management to not admit they have too many resources allocated for their own del…

Depends on the place. I was on a PIP. I met the requirements and at the end of the period, I was taken off the PIP and returned to "regular employment" status.

I quit anyway, but that's a whole other story.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#46

Post by JohnFen » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:04 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #39

JohnFen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'll backtrack a little. It depends on what your priorities are, I suppose. I'd rather not have to explain being fired to a potential employer, and no salary would be worth staying where I'm not wanted. But others may legitimately have other priorities.

Firing versus resignation makes no real difference. It's easy to stay where you're not wanted- don't go to the office, don't answer email, don't do any real work. It's basically garden leave.

> Firing versus resignation makes no real difference.

In my experience, it makes a very large difference.

> It's easy to stay where you're not wanted

I think this depends on personality. It would be unbelievably difficult for me.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#47

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:04 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #40

aprdm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, having PIP'd people, that's hasn't ever been the case. It's never fun for the manager or the person or the company. In 3/4 of the cases they passed with flying colours and both sides were glad we went through it.

Interesting. I'm never been PIP'd myself, but I've seen it happen to many -- and it's never resulted in anything good, nor has it ever seemed as if the purpose was actually to improve anyone's performance. It's usually seems like just a thing that has to be done before you can fire them. Even when the PIP'd employee isn't fired, the PIP remains a scarlet letter on them for the rest of their time at that company. I'm…

I think it may be a self-reinforcing attitude. When I mentioned to a coworker that I had been on a PIP and transitioned out of it, he was amazed. He'd never heard of anyone being removed from one so he assumed that once you're on a PIP you'll eventually be fired.

I think most people put on PIPs think the same: I'm going to be fired anyway, so why bother doing anything about this?

That said, I am absolutely convinced that the reason for the PIP is that they were trying to get rid of a number of (expensive) senior engineers.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#48

Post by clemailacct1 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:06 PM UTC

yanslookup wrote: post #17

Doesn't pass the smell test. Google managers should be sharing the areas that OP is underperforming with examples. It will be clear. There is no "My manager told me to arbitrarily pick someone" with no reason given. My best guess is this person is underperforming and the manager is too focused on head count preservation to notice an underperformance issue. To them, their manager is forcing them in to this but not for…

Unfortunately as someone who worked there in a management role for over 9 years, it’s heard of and talked about - but rarely directly.

I’m shocked OP was told the truth.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#49

Post by aprdm » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:06 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #40

aprdm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, having PIP'd people, that's hasn't ever been the case. It's never fun for the manager or the person or the company. In 3/4 of the cases they passed with flying colours and both sides were glad we went through it.

Interesting. I'm never been PIP'd myself, but I've seen it happen to many -- and it's never resulted in anything good, nor has it ever seemed as if the purpose was actually to improve anyone's performance. It's usually seems like just a thing that has to be done before you can fire them. Even when the PIP'd employee isn't fired, the PIP remains a scarlet letter on them for the rest of their time at that company. I'm…

I think it's a last resort for someone who isn't listening to a specific feedback well, it requires the manager (IME) to be crystal clear on what's not working well, and how they can improve it. And to follow up on in some cadence (every 3 days) with notes, laser focused. Giving an amount of time for the person to show they can and want to change.

In one of the cases the person who got pip'd got promoted to Staff Eng from Senior within a year, it was mostly about his attitude, not about his technical skills, and he changed completely. I think that person was just not self aware how people didn't enjoy working with him, even if the manager gave feedback, he thought it was funny or something like that.

It was a real "Am I the bad one" moment when the PIP process started. Another one was about how they always went too deep into rabbit holes and never delivered any value, to change the way they approach problems, etc.

I feel feedback from managers is extra challenging in remote environments OR in places where a person has been for too long and is too used to the status quo, and PIPs can help there.

I count myself luck that I haven't worked in companies where PIPs were used as a tool to layoff or fire people, but I also take some of those reports with a grain of salt.

Re: Stay or Leave: Manager Admitted I am on PIP because quota

#50

Post by dzdt » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 8:06 PM UTC

I only learned about what is a Performamce Improvement Plan (PIP) from managerial training at my BigCorp.

Assuming it works pretty consistently across the industry, a PIP basically means you are slated to be fired.

Circumstances may change, and by all means pay attention to and try to improve the metrics they ask you to improve, but don't hold any illusions. You are almost certainly leaving that job in the next year one way or another.

You should try to leave on your own terms, i.e. find another job and submit your resignation.