Live data from Hacker News

Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

commoncog.com

71–80 of 177 posts

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#71
Not directly related to the article but I had two amusing encounters with expertise recently.

I sat next to an Econ professor (at an Ivy) on a flight. I told him I had worked at a hedge fund, and he was like "wow, I could never put myself in a situation where my living depended on my economic theories being right."

A good friend of mine is a kinda-famous evolutionary biologist. He's in his mid-40s now, unmarried and doesn't have kids, and likely none on the horizon.

In the economist case, what does it mean that in his expert opinion, he wouldn't trust his own expert opinion! In the biologist case, what does it mean to be one of the world's leading experts on "evolutionary biology" and yet completely fail to pass your own genes?

What's most interesting to me is that neither of these scenarios strike us as "super wrong." I can imagine most people wouldn't hesitate to attend a class taught by either one of these guys, while we'd avoid analogous situations (eg: we wouldn't use a broke financial advisor or fly on an airplane whose designer refuses to set foot on it.) What's the difference?

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#72
This seems like a factor in Dunning-Krueger.

Experts can see all the gradients in ability and will extrapolate how far they are from the top, but all novices know is how far they are from the bottom. If those distance estimates are biased, it’d lead to novices overestimating ability and experts underestimating

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#73

Not directly related to the article but I had two amusing encounters with expertise recently. I sat next to an Econ professor (at an Ivy) on a flight. I told him I had worked at a hedge fund, and he was like "wow, I could never put myself in a situation where my living depended on my economic theories being right." A good friend of mine is a kinda-famous evolutionary biologist. He's in his mid-40s now, unmarried and…

As far as the economist. I suspect he understands that they're theories, thus, to some extent guesses. Some data might support it, but does it hold true in every case? Probably not. Does it hold true in most cases? Maybe not. Would he bet money, effectively what a hedge fund does in my very limited experience here? Sounds like no.

This to me sounds like a simple example of he understands the limitations of his work!

As for your evolutionary biologist friend. Being interested in evolutionary biology does not mean you are inherently someone that wants to be a parent. These are very very different things. Besides, evolutionary biology impacts more than just humans, it impacts every species. Being a parent comes with a great responsibility. Someone could just as easily be a really big fan of dogs, but not want one because of the responsibility or the costs, or similar.

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#74

Not directly related to the article but I had two amusing encounters with expertise recently. I sat next to an Econ professor (at an Ivy) on a flight. I told him I had worked at a hedge fund, and he was like "wow, I could never put myself in a situation where my living depended on my economic theories being right." A good friend of mine is a kinda-famous evolutionary biologist. He's in his mid-40s now, unmarried and…

I see zero problem with having no children and studying evolution. You don’t need to become superconductive to study the physics of superconductivity. You don’t need to become infected by every virus to study virology, and you definietly don’t need to be a virus to be a good virologist. So why would you need to pass on your genes to study evolution?

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#75
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really does sound like you have difficulties with communicating your points that do not have to do with external factors, but with your actual skill at communicating. Experts manage to successfully argue fine points to laypersons all the time to non experts in every field. You are coming across as deflective.

He is not deflective. Your comments are rather dense. The orthodoxy of ‘changing frame’ and ‘putting it in a language they understand’ is layman drivel. It is not always possible to do so and it is overwhelmingly untractable if you eskew the fundamental reasons in a discussion with a non-expert that insists on technical justification and just doesn’t take your cookie-cutter time/money/competitive advantage talking po…

'Eschew' is probably the word you want instead of 'eskew'.

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#76

Not directly related to the article but I had two amusing encounters with expertise recently. I sat next to an Econ professor (at an Ivy) on a flight. I told him I had worked at a hedge fund, and he was like "wow, I could never put myself in a situation where my living depended on my economic theories being right." A good friend of mine is a kinda-famous evolutionary biologist. He's in his mid-40s now, unmarried and…

In the case of the economist, he may have the best theories but it doesn't mean it's correct. He is likely saying his theories have too much uncertainties.

In the case of the evolutionary biologist, successful procreation does not require any knowledge of biology.

When it comes to planes, there is a high correlation between the quality of the plane and the quality of the design.

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#77

Is expertise still important in the age of ChatGPT?

Yeah. ChatGPT has no expertise at all, just a huge amount of knowledge.

Because there are two parts in expertise: pure knowledge, and a set of weighed criteria to evaluate things. This second part is what I think TFA calls "tacit" knowledge. This stuff is a job for neural networks, but more for Alpha0 than for ChatGPT - although it does probably that under the hood, but it's an expertise used to string together questions and answers. That's enough to give the illusion of expertise, but you still face the problem how evaluating that artificial expert. There are many reports that ChatGPT can be "slightly wrong" that only experts can really spot. You can have ChatGPT do your boilerplate code or bulk work if you are an expert in the field.

I personally think of this part of expertise as the expert's "intuition". This intuition is indeed sometimes difficult to communicate. Sometimes because it comes from various experiences, and describing those experiences in enough details would take far too long. Sometimes A just "feels" better than B because those criteria and weights are subconscious; pretty much like you apply a certain amount of force to lift an object because you have subconsciously evaluated its weight (either with material density and shape, or from memory because you've lifted similar things before) - and sometimes you are surprised because it is magnetized or it the box has been emptied.

However, my criteria to evaluate expertise is still how well the expert can explain something to me - that is, if they are good teachers. This also an unreliable proxy like the "vocab point" of TFA. Not everyone is a good teacher, and impostors or poseurs can make you feel like you understand when they are actually bullshitting you.

ChatGPT could be a good (enough) teacher that can help you becoming an expert (partly because of the fact checking work you'll have to do, something you normally don't have to do with an actual teacher), but ChatGPT as an expert, it is a no-no in my book.

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference, I did offer alternative solutions. > I'm surprised you've spent your career doing this and you still haven't figured out how to get people to listen to you. This is the point of the article, which you appear to have missed. There's a point where it becomes essentially impossible to articulate the differences to the lay person. Or for that matter, someone actually quite skilled, but not a "master". It's…

It sounds like you cannot convince them based on merit, because they simply do not understand you and the language you speak. It sounds like you need to change tack, convince them you're an expert in $field without using words and prhases from $field; keep your secrets and knowledge, feed them some generic drivel. Maybe hire someone that can help you with your sales pitch.

I mean who would be convinced by an “expert” who can’t explain to a non-expert?

Yes, maybe I desperately need to frobulize the macrowublitz to avoid pracknation, but I’ll wait for someone who can explain why it’s a high priority to achieve my goals.

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#79
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been familiar with the author and this article for a long time. > It's not a lack of skill on the part of the expert, it's the lack of skill on the part of everybody else This is a very poor frame of reference. It's not other people's fault they cannot understand the value you provide, it's your fault. The thing that tends to bother engineers is that articulating your value (I.e. sales and marketing) is genera…

I see this so often: engineers who think it’s demeaning to explain deeply technical things in business terms, so they refuse. Like it’s somehow noble to only speak one language.

> engineers who think it’s demeaning to explain deeply technical things in business terms, so they refuse

I can, and have, explained 'deeply technical things' in 'business terms'. And people understood. Then made a bad/poor/wrong choice anyway, because... "well... all those things you're saying might happen, they might not. Or... it may not happen for months or years, and we already committed to date X for project Y".

I can tell people the cost of punting on 'deeply technical thing' will be enormous, like... "this will require doubling the dept headcount and stopping all new progress for 6-12 months". Then offer alternatives. Then get summarily ignored, and watch things crash months later, and the dept is then stuck for months scrambling to understand all the problems they could have avoided. The decision maker who decided for extremely short term gain? They're gone (sometimes of their own choosing, sometimes not).

The "risks" can seem wildly out of touch with reality, but many times if you're making poor choices you do hit the "worst case scenario" wall. Colleague has been contracting inside a shop on and off for a few years. He indicated "if we don't do X, we will not be able to do any new feature development for at least 18 months". And... closing in on 4 years later, they've not shipped any substantial new features (some bug fixes, but that's about it).

I've seen this happen once up close, and have seen inside other companies and got the war stories from others.

Does this happen every single time? Of course not. But even if you can confidently and correctly and pleasingly describe deep tech things to business folks in their own language, showing the pros/cons/costs/risks... that doesn't mean they will take your side. Saving face, hitting deadlines at all costs, and other factors weight on decisions, and you can't control that. You can control where and how you work though.

Re: Ability to see expertise is a milestone worth aiming for (2022)

#80
post #73

Not directly related to the article but I had two amusing encounters with expertise recently. I sat next to an Econ professor (at an Ivy) on a flight. I told him I had worked at a hedge fund, and he was like "wow, I could never put myself in a situation where my living depended on my economic theories being right." A good friend of mine is a kinda-famous evolutionary biologist. He's in his mid-40s now, unmarried and…

As far as the economist. I suspect he understands that they're theories, thus, to some extent guesses. Some data might support it, but does it hold true in every case? Probably not. Does it hold true in most cases? Maybe not. Would he bet money, effectively what a hedge fund does in my very limited experience here? Sounds like no. This to me sounds like a simple example of he understands the limitations of his work!…

Yup, your explanation resonates with what I think are the superficial reasons society is accepting of both of these cases. You have to think a little bit deeper to feel why this might be problematic.

If the economist weighs the risk to not put too much stock in these theories (no pun intended actually), why does he not likewise hesitate to teach these theories to his students? Like "I don't believe 100% that this is how the world works enough to bet my own money, but I am going to tell hundreds of students every year this is how the world works."

The biologist story is subtler. One could argue that failure to become a parent signals that you deeply, fundamentally, don't get biology - despite your superficial interest and theoretical knowledge? Like, you may talk about zygotes all day but you failed to make one...

Maybe the difference between economists and biologists vs financial advisors and engineers is that we expect the later to have skin in the game but for some reason allow the former to not have to.

Post reply on HN