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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#391

Post by pxeger1 »

tacticalturtle wrote: post #186
alephnerd wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, is CSAM the motivating factor for UK or do they want backdoor for more general national security surveillance Baroness Beeban Kidron has been lobbying for stringent anti-CSAM measures in tech for years [0]. She's lead a major pressure campaign in the US, Canada, and the UK for years [1]. Her charity 5Rights and WeProtect both have been able to back Labour and the Tories so she's able to lobby across the aisle…

I know I’m from a different culture - but I don’t understand how the UK still has the House of Lords in 2023. It just doesn’t seem aligned with the principles of a republic or democracy to have unelected lifetime members who are able to draft legislation.

I, broadly, think the House of Lords is a good thing in principle. Having a board of experts who can trounce things like the Illegal Migration Bill's potential for human rights abuse is a good thing.

FYI, the House of Lords can't reject the same bill more than three times, and can't reject a bill that calls an election, so its undemocraticness isn't as bad as you might assume.

There are many issues with it but I don't think many of them are much worse than those that already exist with the House of Commons. (Lobbying: exists in both. Unelectedness: the first past the post system is pretty bad here too. Ability of unelected people to introduce bills: private members' bills exist too).

All of these are problems I'd like solved but I wouldn't support removing the House of Lords.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#392

Post by lolinder »

mcpackieh wrote: post #307
sidewndr46 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as "We have never heard of PRISM", that could be true. When you receive a national security letter it isn't like they give you detailed info about the specific operation and why you are receiving it. It's more along the lines of "you're going to do this pursuant to US code section..."

What's more, a National Security Letter is not necessarily addressed to the company's executives and lawyers. A National Security Letter could be send to somebody lower in the organization, closer to the targeted data (for instance a sysadmin) with a clause threatening them with prison time if they tell anybody, even their boss or company lawyers about it. They can essentially conscript anybody in the company to work…

This sounds scary, but unlikely. Do you have a source that this tactic is used and effective?

My immediate reaction to such a letter would be to contact the company legal department regardless of whether the letter said not to, simply because I'd assume unless given very good evidence (and originating from a .gov domain isn't good enough) that it was a scam.

Edit: According to the EFF you can talk to an attorney about an NSL.

https://www.eff.org/issues/national-security-letters/faq#24

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#393

Post by catboybotnet »

Gorbzel wrote: post #340
Keats wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it's China in which case they will not care about it!

It's very strange because like OP, huge fanboy. Early on it felt wrong to also burden Cupertino with being a cultural leader, but somewhere around $1.0T+ market cap, that has evolved. Vaguely remember a charity used to have a thing where they'd auction off a dinner with Steve, then later Tim. Given time with a leader who has literally revolutionized supply chain in CN and a CEO who made Apple his own following the mo…

Capital. Once you grow to a certain point, politics and ideas are only good for marketing. Companies will happily work with banana republics and dictators if it outweighs the losses from paying your PR team a little more for a few months. Companies are not your friend, as in the end they only care about your money.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#394

Post by appletrotter »

Spivak wrote: post #315
Rebelgecko wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno how I feel about that metaphor. To me the current situation isn't just saying "police have the power to kick in doors". It's more like "citizens are banned from building houses with doors that make it hard for police to enter".

I think if you could build such a thing they would be banned on the same grounds.

It already exists. You can have a door with a steel core. It's not illegal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/zcvwno/steel_rein...

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#395

Post by justapassenger »

judge2020 wrote: post #213
Keats wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it's China in which case they will not care about it!

China had all the bargaining power, in that non-compliance meant no more iPhones, and Apple going out of business. Apple wasn't ready to move production entirely to India or another country.

Google, Meta (Oculus) are banned in China and still produce their HW there.

It was about getting a slice of hugely lucrative pie of customer market.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#396

Post by amelius »

obituary_latte wrote: post #2

Stuff like this is why I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm happy to pay a premium and be locked into their walled garden for some things if it means supporting a company that has the power to shift policy in favor of human rights (privacy in this case).

Corporations > Democracy

What could go wrong?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#397

Post by bastardoperator »

mcpackieh wrote: post #307
sidewndr46 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as "We have never heard of PRISM", that could be true. When you receive a national security letter it isn't like they give you detailed info about the specific operation and why you are receiving it. It's more along the lines of "you're going to do this pursuant to US code section..."

What's more, a National Security Letter is not necessarily addressed to the company's executives and lawyers. A National Security Letter could be send to somebody lower in the organization, closer to the targeted data (for instance a sysadmin) with a clause threatening them with prison time if they tell anybody, even their boss or company lawyers about it. They can essentially conscript anybody in the company to work…

Letters can be intercepted, letters have tracking, letters of this magnitude will require certification, and at the very least will require a courier. All of that assumes the letter can be delivered, and also assumes that the recipient believes that the letter is authentic. If I sent you an authentic looking NSA letter, would you just do what you're told? Fat chance...

An email/phone call to a legal department is much less work and provides all the same protections.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#398

Post by amelius »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #15
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Stuff like this is why I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm happy to pay a premium and be locked into their walled garden Such statements rarely end up ageing like wine in the long run. Why would you be so happy about being owned by some big corporation just because it's your favorite big corporation? Self preservation has taught me not to trust any big corporation, regardless of how good their PR is.

Apple has been around for a pretty long time as far as tech companies go. I have grievances with them, but mostly they do a better than average job on privacy.

> mostly they do a better than average job on privacy

which is really a low bar.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#400

Post by amelius »

obituary_latte wrote: post #2

Stuff like this is why I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm happy to pay a premium and be locked into their walled garden for some things if it means supporting a company that has the power to shift policy in favor of human rights (privacy in this case).

> Stuff like this is why I'm an Apple fanboy.

A fanboy without iMessage and FaceTime ...

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