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Language history and we: the case of “like”

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Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#31
I actually think that the word “actual” is interesting since many people seem to pepper their statements with it. I originally thought it was mainly a discourse marker (“Actually [interjection], the moon is not made of cheese”), but it is often used unprompted (not as a response to anything else): “I actually like the flavor of cheese”—why not just “I like the flavor of cheese”?

Some people who monologue (like in a video) about a subject often use it. “Cleopatra was actually not black.” This makes some sense since you use it to emphasize something that you assume might be surprising, instead of using a more flat statement. But it gets weird when the speaker supposedly thinks that every statement that they make is surprising or even astounding to the hypothetical listener. No: many statements are expected, and some statements you had no prejudice about one way or the other, so the listener has nothing to be surprised about.

It feels like the the monologuer assumes that they are just blowing the minds of the listener on a continual basis.

It’s also often used for excessive emphasis: “I actually love ice cream”. Like “ice cream is literally my favorite flavor”. Excessive emphasis IMO should be sparingly used or else it loses its effect. It’s like “literally”: it can have a humorous effect when used to mean “figuratively”, but if you regularly use it like that it becomes lame. (But I have lost that battle: literally now literally means both “in the literal sense” and “in the figurative sense”.) I don’t appreciate the affect of someone who emphasizes every third sentence while speaking, and to me these emphasis words have the same effect when I read them.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#32
> The subject [of the word ‘like’] is not uninteresting, but it is trivial. Like is a hesitation phenomenon (to give it status, the term discourse marker has been used about it), and the speaker, to gain time, makes pauses and fills them with like.

This is so oversimplified as to border on being incorrect. Even Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Like] is able to list several more uses in colloquial speech, including:

• As a quotative marker, to introduce direct speech: ”I was, like, ‘who was that?’ ”

• As a quotative it can also introduce ideophones: “The firework went, like, boom

• As a hedge it moderates exaggeration: “I had to wait, like, hours for the bus to arrive”

• It can also indicate a counterexpectation, emphasising a contrast to what the listener might think: “There was, like, no free memory left”

None of these can be dismissed as merely ‘gaining time’. I can’t deny it has that role too, but that’s far from the only meaning of like, and to say otherwise just obscures the way it’s really used.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#33
'I literally did a complete 360 and could care less about how people use a language.'; That's all my pet peeves in one sentence. They come across as 'ignorant' as if the speakers aren't aware of what they're saying. Otherwise, I believe language to be an ever-evolving entity. While we can define its current usage, trying to solidify it would be a fool's errand.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#34

I am against institutional language standards that exist in some languages, because using the language freely how you want is a part of basic freedom. That being said, speaking with some level of control lets us exchange thoughts in a more organized way, and not just the same bag of soundbites all the time. It also shows, as a small thing, that we value striving for some improvement. It feels that it becomes an incre…

> Yes, there were always "lowbrow" language and culture Isn't the of concept of low brow a strictly oppressive one? It only serves to further strip power from those outside the dominant group. When the lowbrow group become dominant then their style and norms become the standard of highbrow.

well if you think of all forms of expression as being equal but for their regard by society then yeah, but that's not how anyone seems to live. It's not that simple people think they are sophisticated simply because they are in power, they instead believe there is no such thing as sophistication. you also assume there is one form of expression per "group" and not a variance in brow position across groups. I mean, if you're going to apply this foucauldian logic at least do some legwork to say something new.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, there were always "lowbrow" language and culture Isn't the of concept of low brow a strictly oppressive one? It only serves to further strip power from those outside the dominant group. When the lowbrow group become dominant then their style and norms become the standard of highbrow.

well if you think of all forms of expression as being equal but for their regard by society then yeah, but that's not how anyone seems to live. It's not that simple people think they are sophisticated simply because they are in power, they instead believe there is no such thing as sophistication. you also assume there is one form of expression per "group" and not a variance in brow position across groups. I mean, if…

I didn't realise my belief had to be novel in order to be valid. Or is it only when you associate my belief with the boogeyman of Foucault?

> you also assume there is one form of expression per "group"

I didn't assume that or imply it in any way. I understand that there various linguistic strata and they each have their own substrata. I still stand by the assertions I made above, as while there are inter-group power dynamics at play in the defining of "brow level" there are of course also intra-group power dynamics.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#37

I am against institutional language standards that exist in some languages, because using the language freely how you want is a part of basic freedom. That being said, speaking with some level of control lets us exchange thoughts in a more organized way, and not just the same bag of soundbites all the time. It also shows, as a small thing, that we value striving for some improvement. It feels that it becomes an incre…

> Yes, there were always "lowbrow" language and culture Isn't the of concept of low brow a strictly oppressive one? It only serves to further strip power from those outside the dominant group. When the lowbrow group become dominant then their style and norms become the standard of highbrow.

Note the scare quotes. I used an imperfect word to suggest a crude mode of communication where we don't care about communicating clearly or on subject, or human aspirations beyond biology and prestige, or emphasizing respect to yourself and to the other person, or maintaining connection to the long term culture and history of thought.

That not this equals power is an interesting meme. Powerful people are usually crude (police, army, politicians, business magnates, aristocracy and the like isn't known for being very subtle either). Of course with humanities you can creatively construct almost any reading to the culture and society if you want to "prove" what you want. If you strictly equate cultural practices with social groups that can be dominant or not, there is already some gross simplification going on.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#38
post #32

> The subject [of the word ‘like’] is not uninteresting, but it is trivial. Like is a hesitation phenomenon (to give it status, the term discourse marker has been used about it), and the speaker, to gain time, makes pauses and fills them with like . This is so oversimplified as to border on being incorrect. Even Wikipedia [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Like ] is able to list several more uses in colloquial speech, i…

I have no doubt that Anatoly is completely aware of these other uses of like! I know him professionally. The time he sat through a plenary on the uses of "like," which he mentions, at the very least would have brought him up to speed. But also, he is a linguist, and a philologist, and an exquisite scholar, and despite his get-off-my-language-lawn blog entry, he is quite learned.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, there were always "lowbrow" language and culture Isn't the of concept of low brow a strictly oppressive one? It only serves to further strip power from those outside the dominant group. When the lowbrow group become dominant then their style and norms become the standard of highbrow.

Note the scare quotes. I used an imperfect word to suggest a crude mode of communication where we don't care about communicating clearly or on subject, or human aspirations beyond biology and prestige, or emphasizing respect to yourself and to the other person, or maintaining connection to the long term culture and history of thought. That not this equals power is an interesting meme. Powerful people are usually crud…

I saw the scare quotes and was going to mention that in my comment as I was aware you weren't necessarily using the word in a derogatory way. I chose not to as I thought it would be clear enough. Apologies for not being more explicit on my reading of your words.

> a crude mode of communication where we don't care about communicating clearly or on subject

I didn't read this from it though. That seems somewhat orthogonal to the content of the article?

> or emphasizing respect to yourself and to the other person, or maintaining connection to the long term culture and history of thought.

This I do actually take issue with though. This is an example of what I meant above. I grew up speaking a "non-standard" English and I can say that I've never felt that using it was reflective of a lack for respect for myself or the people around me. Saying that someone should speak in a more "standard" or "high brow" way that comes unnaturally to them in order to show respect is an example of the power dynamic I'm talking about.

I come from Northern Ireland and my speech is heavily inflected. If I go to England and speak with people who have more linguistic dominance then I notice a change in how in received. There is an assumption that I'm less intelligent when I use my Hiberno-English, like saying "they learned me how to write" rather than "they taught me how to write." If the English of my home was dominant then we would see this effect in reverse.

Same for wanting to "maintain a connection to long term culture or thought." Those cultures and thoughts win out on the long term because of the power plays. How many languages have died out in the course of colonialism? Do think the speakers of those languages didn't want a connection to the history of thought, or did we just ignore them and forget them because they lacked the power to assert themselves?

> Of course with humanities you can creatively construct

What does this mean? Are you saying that your assertions are more rooted in hard science than mine? Or the whole field of social linguistics is hogwash? Then why have this conversation at all?

> If you strictly equate cultural practices with social groups that can be dominant or not

I didn't.

> Powerful people are usually crude

Is this an oversimplification? Are non powerful people usually not crude? This is the point: the sophistication is not an inherent trait of the language; it's socially constructed and perpetuated through social power dynamics.

Re: Language history and we: the case of “like”

#40
post #18

He doesn't mention my pet peeve: the use of "So" to start a story or a talk, or to start every (spoken) paragraph. Other than that, the article was groovy, man. And get off my lawn.

You're really going to hate Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf, then.
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