George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome • Hacker News Board

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#11

Post by rst » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 2:31 PM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #9

George Dyson is the son of the physicist Freeman Dyson, who worked at the Institute for Advance Study from 1953 during the time when von Neumann et al were building the IAS computer. He (George) gave a talk [1] in 2008 where he mentioned that he used to hang out at the IAS as a child and met von Neumann, Kurt Godel, and others. This probably explains his emphasis on the IAS and von Neumann. I do agree with the opinio…

The Manchester machines were very significant for at least two reasons. First off, they were the first to feature "Williams tube" CRT memory, which was the high-speed memory of choice in any early computer effort that could afford it (including the IAS machine which is Dyson's subject, and for which he apparently fails to give Williams proper credit).

Second, it was the first machine to feature any kind of an index register, a facility that was quite widely copied. You can trace the influence from the spread of the Manchester name for the facility: they called it the "B-tube", a reference to the internal structure of their own machine. (Already having an "A-tube" for the accumulator, and a "C-tube" for control registers, they used the first free letter.) And if you read through the computing literature of the '50s, you'll find frequent references to index registers using terms like "B-boxes", which are otherwise inexplicable.

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#12

Post by vidarh » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 2:51 PM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #7

The mythmaking around the early history of computing is fascinating (and maddening) to watch. In the rush to create compelling narratives around a few selected heroes, the complexities and the contributions of the many are too often shunted aside.

You keep finding this mythmaking pretty much up to present-day, and permeating through other parts of the computing industry as well. It'll take a long time to untangle this and separate the myths from reality.

My "favorite" example is the hyped up reverence for Apple's role in the early days of the home computer, and the "cult of Woz", when they weren't first by a long shot, and largely priced themselves out of the race for many years, with sales a distant third after Radio Shack and Commodore.

Meanwhile a bunch of early guys at Commodore who directly influenced a lot more people are pretty much ignored, not least Chuck Peddle (the father of the 6502 at MOS Technology without which most of the 70's and 80's home computers would've looked very different, and of the KIM and Commodore PET computers, the latter which outsold Apple in the beginning, until replaced by the VIC 20)

To an extent it is down to who writes history - in this case Apple is the only survivor of the home computer wars, combined with being the only one of the larger players who were a predominantly Silicon Valley company (Commodore had offices there, but moved East, and never did as well in the US as elsewhere).

But as an old Commodore / Amiga user who's very aware of how short-changed Commodore has been by modern day mythmaking around the home computers, I wonder how much else of early computing history is twisted or forgotten that shouldn't have been...

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#13

Post by blasterford » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 3:08 PM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #7

The mythmaking around the early history of computing is fascinating (and maddening) to watch. In the rush to create compelling narratives around a few selected heroes, the complexities and the contributions of the many are too often shunted aside.

People don't want complicated history. They want "The telephone was invented by Alexander Graham Bell". Even if it's factually incorrect or obscures the real story.

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#14

Post by crusso » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 3:18 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #12

michael_dorfman wrote: post #7

The mythmaking around the early history of computing is fascinating (and maddening) to watch. In the rush to create compelling narratives around a few selected heroes, the complexities and the contributions of the many are too often shunted aside.

You keep finding this mythmaking pretty much up to present-day, and permeating through other parts of the computing industry as well. It'll take a long time to untangle this and separate the myths from reality. My "favorite" example is the hyped up reverence for Apple's role in the early days of the home computer, and the "cult of Woz", when they weren't first by a long shot, and largely priced themselves out of the…

But what are the rules of this "mythmaking" game you speak of? Seems like a pretty subjective game to get excited about in terms of right or wrong.

To play Devil's Advocate: Apple has been extraordinarily successful at inventing or popularizing multiple industries within the technology space. They're still around and doing very well financially and in the eyes of the consuming public.

Commodore/Amiga were neat in ways, but never could produce the "whole package" experience and business model they needed to last for the long haul. Surely they deserve some footnotes for their efforts, but their relative popularity/myth within the computer industry is just about where it should be.

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#15

Post by pyre » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #14

vidarh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep finding this mythmaking pretty much up to present-day, and permeating through other parts of the computing industry as well. It'll take a long time to untangle this and separate the myths from reality. My "favorite" example is the hyped up reverence for Apple's role in the early days of the home computer, and the "cult of Woz", when they weren't first by a long shot, and largely priced themselves out of the…

But what are the rules of this "mythmaking" game you speak of? Seems like a pretty subjective game to get excited about in terms of right or wrong. To play Devil's Advocate: Apple has been extraordinarily successful at inventing or popularizing multiple industries within the technology space. They're still around and doing very well financially and in the eyes of the consuming public. Commodore/Amiga were neat in way…

It's more of a "Apple created the home computer all by themselves at a time when absolutely no one else was creating home computers. They invented the home computer from scratch," myth. In a decade or so, we're likely to see the same thing about Apple regarding the iPod, iPhone, and iPad. Apple's 'marketing buzz' spiraling out of control within the general public until the statement becomes something akin to, "Apple invented everything that they've ever used from scratch... even their office furniture."

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#16

Post by slowpoke » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 3:55 PM UTC

blasterford wrote: post #13

michael_dorfman wrote: post #7

The mythmaking around the early history of computing is fascinating (and maddening) to watch. In the rush to create compelling narratives around a few selected heroes, the complexities and the contributions of the many are too often shunted aside.

People don't want complicated history. They want "The telephone was invented by Alexander Graham Bell". Even if it's factually incorrect or obscures the real story.

There are some things where you should never give the people what they want. False history is one of these things.

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#17

Post by kamjam » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 4:27 PM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #9

George Dyson is the son of the physicist Freeman Dyson, who worked at the Institute for Advance Study from 1953 during the time when von Neumann et al were building the IAS computer. He (George) gave a talk [1] in 2008 where he mentioned that he used to hang out at the IAS as a child and met von Neumann, Kurt Godel, and others. This probably explains his emphasis on the IAS and von Neumann. I do agree with the opinio…

I do agree with the opinion expressed in the article, though, that the British contribution tends to be downplayed. But as a brit myself we're used to that...

I tend to find that is the case. Us brits tend to be less brash and more modest than our US counterparts.

On the flip side, we tend to be called unfriendly because of it!

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#18

Post by blasterford » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:02 PM UTC

slowpoke wrote: post #16

blasterford wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't want complicated history. They want "The telephone was invented by Alexander Graham Bell". Even if it's factually incorrect or obscures the real story.

There are some things where you should never give the people what they want. False history is one of these things.

  Elphaba, Where I Come From, We Believe All Sorts Of Things
  That Aren't True. We Call It History.

  A Man's Called A Traitor
  Or Liberator. A Rich Man's A Thief
  Or Philanthropist. Is One A Crusader
  or ruthless invader? It's all in which label
  is able to persist.

  There Are Precious Few At Ease
  With Moral Ambiguities, So We Act As Though They Don't Exist.

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#19

Post by epo » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 6:00 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #15

crusso wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what are the rules of this "mythmaking" game you speak of? Seems like a pretty subjective game to get excited about in terms of right or wrong. To play Devil's Advocate: Apple has been extraordinarily successful at inventing or popularizing multiple industries within the technology space. They're still around and doing very well financially and in the eyes of the consuming public. Commodore/Amiga were neat in way…

It's more of a "Apple created the home computer all by themselves at a time when absolutely no one else was creating home computers. They invented the home computer from scratch," myth. In a decade or so, we're likely to see the same thing about Apple regarding the iPod, iPhone, and iPad. Apple's 'marketing buzz' spiraling out of control within the general public until the statement becomes something akin to, "Apple…

Citation(s) needed. Who said this? When? Where?

Re: George Dyson's continued downplaying of British computing efforts is tiresome

#20

Post by crusso » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #15

crusso wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what are the rules of this "mythmaking" game you speak of? Seems like a pretty subjective game to get excited about in terms of right or wrong. To play Devil's Advocate: Apple has been extraordinarily successful at inventing or popularizing multiple industries within the technology space. They're still around and doing very well financially and in the eyes of the consuming public. Commodore/Amiga were neat in way…

It's more of a "Apple created the home computer all by themselves at a time when absolutely no one else was creating home computers. They invented the home computer from scratch," myth. In a decade or so, we're likely to see the same thing about Apple regarding the iPod, iPhone, and iPad. Apple's 'marketing buzz' spiraling out of control within the general public until the statement becomes something akin to, "Apple…

Yeah, I don't really know how to deal with your hyperbole. Who is passing along this myth that Apple invented the personal computer from scratch? Maybe you should add in that Woz invented electricity while you're spinning a tale?