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Advice From An Old Programmer

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#41
post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

Good luck with the switch.

I did this a few years ago and love it.

Things you should know depending on what you're doing: Math/Finance - statistics, know stats inside and out. - differential calc and finite difference methods - Black Scholes,

Programming - the R langugage - vba, if you don't know R really well then vba can be useful for modelling. VBA is approachable enough that every trader uses it and when they move shops they take their vba models with them. - C++ or C, it's still used very widely and often is the language that interviews are conducted on. - TCP/IP performance. - linux kernel tweeks for performance.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#42

Edw's comment aside, I can understand being bored with programming. After you learn your way around a dozen or so different platforms, if you're not getting bored you might want to check to see if you don't have a bit of Asperger's. But he nails it when he points out that all of this programming talk is bullshit. It's just stuff to chat mindlessly about while you're not helping people. Programming is making computers…

When I was 21, I thought the fun part was learning new technologies and the hard, frustrating, somewhat boring part was writing the code. (I also only knew C++ and Java, so I thought the accidental complexity of these languages was an intrinsic fixture of programming.) Learning Python, then Ocaml, then Lisp, was a lot of fun. (The REPL makes a huge difference in the experience of programming. It makes the code real r…

I love programming and find it very relaxing.

I would probably also like re-arranging chairs at a charity function. Or solving mathematical puzzles in books. I also love instrument flying, which is like real-time fluid dynamics where you die if you screw it up.

But I've come to understand that these are just properties of the types of people who grok computers -- detail-oriented, able to spend many hours in the zone, and in love with complexity. At some point, the "benefits" from this personality type become drawbacks. There are a lot of guys spending thousands of hours on code in their spare time that might help 3 people -- who are also programmers. I'm not saying this is a bad choice. It just seems to me like we programmers as a whole like trivial things and can spend most of our time on them as long as they tickle our analytic bone. Continuing my flying example, there have been cases of people flying airplanes into the sides of mountains in perfectly good weather while they were fiddling around with the flight computer. Many of us are doing the same thing -- only in very slow motion.

By the way, the fun part is learning the technology. The hard part is working with people to make something they want -- which is why it's about a million times more important.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#43
post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

I'm also 37, and have been programming a similar amount of time (15 of those years professionally). I've worked in 2 person, 10 person, 20 person, 30 person, 50 person, 300 person, and 5000 person organizations.

What I've discovered is this: In larger organizations, you get respect by being the "answer" guy. If everyone's coming to you for advice, you become more important.

In small organizations, you get respect for being the hero, who waves his magic wand and fixes things after everything goes to shit. This is easy to do since most of the operations are pretty basic and cowboy to begin with.

The biggest key to respect (in mid-to-large organizations) is playing the political game. The more your name is on peoples' lips, the more important you'll appear to be.

But the question is: WHY do you want it? If it's for the money, you can get much more money with less effort freelancing or consulting. If it's for security, you could also get that by digging yourself so deeply into an essential project that nobody can get you out. If it's for the admiration of your peers, just remember that it also sparks envy, and separates you from them emotionally. If you wish to belong, you're far better off choosing a faction to ally yourself with, and remaining loyal. Elevation is a loner's game.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#44
post #29
post #28

Thoughts from an Older Programmer... I've been programming for a very long time. Me too. So long that it's incredibly boring to me. Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever. ...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were. I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well. Eventually though this just…

"If you're worried about getting respect, you're worried about the wrong thing". I don't agree with this. I agree that if you're worried about getting popularity, then you're worried about the wrong thing. Respect is important, but only from the right people.

Yes. We seem to be trying so hard these days to make our organisational structures appear flat and informal (e.g. open plan office spaces, casual dress policies, "360 degree reviews" and an aversion to using job titles) that I feel it's just pushed the competition for status and respect underground. The people who've been around for a long time simply find other ways to show newcomers that they're important or that they should be listened to. Things like camping out in one of the meeting rooms "because I have a lot of import calls to make". Or wearing something just slightly smarter than everyone else. Or a kind of faux humility like ScottGu's sub-title on his blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/. Or coming to work in their 1998 "version 1.0 shipping date" T-shirt.

I've recently starting to think that people have a fundamental need for hierarchy and what you might call "respect structures" and that if you deny them the job titles and corner offices then they just find other ways of projecting their status. In a way, I'd prefer the overt methods - so long as there's a route to getting there myself someday.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#46
post #28

Thoughts from an Older Programmer... I've been programming for a very long time. Me too. So long that it's incredibly boring to me. Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever. ...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were. I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well. Eventually though this just…

> I disagree. I've met a lot of non-programmers who knew a little programming. They were more dangerous than effective.

I'm sure you're well aware of this, but there's a ton of opportunity for even very simple programming to help in cases where people have never thought of programming as a possible solution. (This is how I contributed roughly $3MM of value to one company as a kid who barely knew how to program). On the other hand, it takes a lot more sophistication (I assume, don't have first-hand experience) to add value to a place that already recognizes the value of programming and automates their work.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#47
post #28

Thoughts from an Older Programmer... I've been programming for a very long time. Me too. So long that it's incredibly boring to me. Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever. ...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were. I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well. Eventually though this just…

So 'boring' programmers are there to fetch food and essentials for the 'sexy' programmers!? ;)

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#48
"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines."

That is the best thing in his advice column.

It's hard to pull off though. I started programming at 5 and am at a skill level comparable to this poster, but I studied biology in college with an eye to doing exactly this sort of thing. Then I discovered that bio is a Ph.D's only club and that you cannot get any kind of job in the industry if you don't at least have a Masters'. I didn't want to do this for various reasons (money, not liking school), so I found myself back in IT/programming where the pay was 3X higher than what I could get in the bio world with a BS only.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#49
post #28

Thoughts from an Older Programmer... I've been programming for a very long time. Me too. So long that it's incredibly boring to me. Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever. ...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were. I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well. Eventually though this just…

"Eventually though this just became boring and couldn't hold my interest anymore."

> "That may be because you're too focused inwardly and not toward your users."

Well, that was his point... it became boring because he didn't focus on what he was producing, and how it was going to be used. He became preoccupied with the technology.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was 21, I thought the fun part was learning new technologies and the hard, frustrating, somewhat boring part was writing the code. (I also only knew C++ and Java, so I thought the accidental complexity of these languages was an intrinsic fixture of programming.) Learning Python, then Ocaml, then Lisp, was a lot of fun. (The REPL makes a huge difference in the experience of programming. It makes the code real r…

I love programming and find it very relaxing. I would probably also like re-arranging chairs at a charity function. Or solving mathematical puzzles in books. I also love instrument flying, which is like real-time fluid dynamics where you die if you screw it up. But I've come to understand that these are just properties of the types of people who grok computers -- detail-oriented, able to spend many hours in the zone,…

By the way, the fun part is learning the technology. The hard part is working with people -- which is why it's about a million times more important.

That's very interesting, and indeed seems to mark a certain personality type. Most people would see that exactly the other way around, that working with people is fun and easy, but the technical stuff is hard and extremely frustrating.

It depends completely on your skill and what you're used to. Almost all people tend to think their own area of expertise is easier compared to others and don't understand why other people don't get it like they do (which has a simple answer: years of experience).

There are a lot of guys spending thousands of hours on code in their spare time that might help 3 people -- who are also programmers

Nah, helping 3 people in your spare time is more than helping no one. You're right, if your goal is to help as many people as possible, programming isn't the right time sink. Better to sign up for some volunteer job. On the other hand, you could also be reading a book, playing a game or watching TV and helping exactly no one :)

Edit: and don't forget many non-programmers also spend their spare time on very trivial stuff. The problem is not exactly limited to technical people...

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