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Advice From An Old Programmer

learnpythonthehardway.org

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#21
post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

"Respect" is a social construct that relies highly on social interaction. Since programming is a lonely activity it's hard to earn respect beyond peers. Not that one should really care about that much. I have found that i earned more respect when i started introducing myself as "entrepreneur" than i got when i was "programmer", even though i actually work less in general now.

As for working in other fields, from my experience in a biology lab, yes, you may earn "God-like" status sometimes, that is, become the last resort for everyone, but truth-be-told, sometimes you find yourself doing boilerplate work by just implementing some algorithm and nothing too exciting.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#22
I worked for a company where they had a student (internship) set up the LAN, among other things. He got the job done, they liked to boss him around and pretty much everyone agreed the guy was lazy and there was no way they were going to hire him, blah blah. Truth be told, you could see he didn't like it there. But they couldn't have been more wrong about that guy. And I've seen this over and over again: it has nothing to do with technology. It has everything to do with the people you work for and how big of an influence your job has on whatever it is a company is trying to sell. It's very discouraging to a lot of people when they're in a situation like that guy was. Fortunately, he only stayed there for like 6 - 9 months (too long, imo, but he had no choice), so when his time was up I asked him where he was going. He was going to work for a company that offered network solutions, he figured that was a better choice than to go work for a company similar to the one he just interned for. And he was right. I happened to know the company and the owner, so I assured him he made the right choice. I checked up on him a few months in and all I can say is: time to move on when you're in a situation like he was.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#23
"Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art"

Well, except for architecture. And industrial design. And pretty much most art that requires someone to interpret it (it depends on who you think you are making your art for - the person interpreting it, or the person watching the interpretation...)

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) Is "respect" really so important to you that you are willing to sacrifice a 25 year career? Surely if the pay is good and you enjoy that's all that matters. b) By switching professions to a more "respected/cool" one do you not think you're just contributing to the problem of programmers not being taken seriously?

> more "respected/cool" By using "cool", I get the impression that you're thinking more about respect from people outside work, rather than those you are working with. I think the article was talking about respect from the people you work with and work under, in the sense that if you are not respected, then you likely won't get paid what you are worth. From the point of view, point (a) is a contradiction - if you are…

Pay isn't that well correlated with respect.

Exhibit: The "starving artist" vs the "slimeball lawyer".

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#25
post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

"Respect" is a social construct that relies highly on social interaction. Since programming is a lonely activity it's hard to earn respect beyond peers. Not that one should really care about that much. I have found that i earned more respect when i started introducing myself as "entrepreneur" than i got when i was "programmer", even though i actually work less in general now. As for working in other fields, from my e…

That is sadly true. I've been developing software for the past 6 years and have helped organizing several developer oriented events. Now I have worked in entrepreneurship for 8 months and am currently organizing the first entrepreneurial event(Startup Weekend).

Yesterday i received an official invitation from the city council to a banquet for entrepreneurs in our city...

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#26

I think this piece keeps coming up every so many days. It's a great piece of advice, and i think most developers come to the same conclusion after a few years. I think a useful corrolary from this is "Do not reinvent the wheel all the time by changing programming styles, instead try to extend the frontiers of technology" (I 'm looking at you, web frameworks).

This. I was reading someone's blog the other day about how they were rewriting their app in node.js... whereas a few years before that, I remember that they had rewritten the app in rails... Their product could've been so much further along had they just stuck with php/.net (whatever is was originally).

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#27
Also a part of this problem is that many programmers are assholes. Going out to the world while thinking "im to smart for the rest of the world, tha hell with them" is just a big social failure in general. One need to be able to see things out of different perspectives, a bit more open minded. Just because a person like to do other things in life then CS-stuff, does not mean they are automatically stupid.

Programming is not everything in life as many would like to think. Handling different kinds of people in different kinds environments for example is much, much harder then learning how to code.

Connecting this all together has made up a history of non sympathetic people doing "the coding stuff" at the office where everyone else just stop caring about these guys cause you can't really talk to them. Now im just talking about the stereotype thats has been biting us in the ass for ages. Portrayed in media etc etc

This has been covered well in the beginning of the social network where Mark get lectured up by his girlfriend at the bar....

So really from experience, a good way out of this is not going to management, but just to "listen" to other people and open up your mind a bit...

/coder since age of 13, 29 years now, startup, the whole 9 yards

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#28
Thoughts from an Older Programmer...

I've been programming for a very long time.

Me too.

So long that it's incredibly boring to me.

Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever.

...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were.

I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well.

Eventually though this just became boring and couldn't hold my interest anymore.

That may be because you're too focused inwardly and not toward your users.

This doesn't mean I think programming is boring, or that you will think it's boring, only that I find it uninteresting at this point in my journey.

Not me, and I'll tell you why shortly...

What I discovered after this journey of learning is that it's not the languages that matter but what you do with them.

Yes!

Actually, I always knew that, but I'd get distracted by the languages and forget it periodically. Now I never forget it, and neither should you.

Yes fellow programmers, this is a trap! Even after 33 years of building stuff for my users, I'll have a day when I realize that it's already dinner time and I haven't done a damn productive thing all day long. Just played around for the fun of it. (This is not a bad idea every once in a while, just as long as you know its a trap, and eventually you have to get back to work. Do this for months and you can really lose your way.)

Which programming language you learn and use doesn't matter. Do not get sucked into the religion surrounding programming languages as that will only blind you to their true purpose of being your tool for doing interesting things.

Yes. I've made about 4,500 Hacker News comments, but I don't think I've ever participated in a language war. Fortunately, I instinctively knew that this was pretty much a waste of time for me.

Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art. You can create projects that other people can play with, and you can talk to them indirectly. No other art form is quite this interactive. Movies flow to the audience in one direction. Paintings do not move. Code goes both ways.

What about stand-up comedy? By definition, the audience is part of the act. Anyone can tell jokes to their cats, but killing a room is an entirely different story. (I found this out the hard way.)

Oddly, with the users I've had lately, I often forget whether I'm doing comedy or programming. I have to check to see if I'm sitting or standing to be able to tell the difference.

Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting.

Take out the words "as a profession" and re-read that sentence. It shouldn't make any difference. If you love programming, you can easily love it as a profession (in the right conditions, of course). If you don't love programming, do the world a favor and do something else as a profession.

It can be a good job, but you could make about the same money and be happier running a fast food joint.

Money really shouldn't have anything to do with it. You can earn a living many different ways. Do what you love.

You're much better off using code as your secret weapon in another profession.

I disagree. I've met a lot of non-programmers who knew a little programming. They were more dangerous than effective.

People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect.

This was a nice post from OP until this sentence. This is just stupid. There may be lots of mediocre and poor practioners in any vocation, but good programmers and not a dime a dozen. Also, respect is relative. If you're worried about getting respect, you're worried about the wrong thing.

People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines.

People have often asked me how I've used my programming skill to help the world. I always answer immediately, "With everything I've ever done." Sure, the disciplines OP mentions are sexy, cool, and important, but so is manufacturing stuff, distributing it, accounting for the money exchanged, and a million other "boring" things. Programming to keep the world working is just as important as all that sexy stuff too. (Maybe even more important, what were all those "sexy programmers" doing for food, shelter, and essentials when they were busy changing the world? You better believe that a "boring programmer" built something to help bring those things to them.)

Of course, all of this advice is pointless.

Not really. Even though I've disagree with OP on a lot of stuff, his advice is not pointless. There's something to be learned from everyone else, especially those with lots of experience.

If you liked learning to write software with this book, you should try to use it to improve your life any way you can. Go out and explore this weird wonderful new intellectual pursuit that barely anyone in the last 50 years has been able to explore. Might as well enjoy it while you can.

Great advice. I did it and I'm so glad I did. Many others should, too.

Finally, I'll say that learning to create software changes you and makes you different. Not better or worse, just different.

This is true of just about anything. And most definitely true of programming. I can't imagine what my life would have been like otherwise. (In another century, I probably would have been a cook or something. I probably would have been happy, but I'm so glad things worked out the way they did.)

You may find that people treat you harshly because you can create software, maybe using words like "nerd". Maybe you'll find that because you can dissect their logic that they hate arguing with you. You may even find that simply knowing how a computer works makes you annoying and weird to them.

Another hard lesson: others' opinions of you should not matter. If it does, slow down and think about this again. You should be focused on your work and your users. Don't worry about the naysayers.

To this I have just one piece of advice: they can go to hell.

My feelings exactly, but I'd like to think I'd use different words. Be nice.

The world needs more weird people who know how things work and who love to figure it all out. When they treat you like this, just remember that this is your journey, not theirs. Being different is not a crime, and people who tell you it is are just jealous that you've picked up a skill they never in their wildest dreams could acquire.

It took me a long time to realize that I was an "outlier". Once I understood that, lot of other things came into perspective. That's probably true for lots of other programmers, too.

You can code. They cannot. That is pretty damn cool.

Please remove the sentence "They cannot." That's bad attitude and doesn't matter. The resulting paragraph, "You can code. That is pretty damn cool." pretty much sums up exactly how I've always felt about it. Thank you, OP!

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#29
post #28

Thoughts from an Older Programmer... I've been programming for a very long time. Me too. So long that it's incredibly boring to me. Actually, it's more interesting to me than ever. ...I knew about 20 programming languages and could learn new ones in about a day to a week depending on how weird they were. I have a cursory knowledge of quite a few myself. But I know one really, really well. Eventually though this just…

"If you're worried about getting respect, you're worried about the wrong thing".

I don't agree with this. I agree that if you're worried about getting popularity, then you're worried about the wrong thing. Respect is important, but only from the right people.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#30
post #7

"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect" Generally in business, those people whose job title is 'programmer' or 'developer' or 'software engineer' get relatively little respect even with lots of experience. (I am 37 years old and programming since 12) Previously I thought the only way out of this is to become a 'manager', which I never really wanted to do... Rec…

Programming in a commercial sense really means solving other people's problems under a set of constraints over which you have little or no control. I always get a little annoyed when people say, in an interview, that they have 10 years experience, because they started at 12. That's great and I encourage it, but it's not transferable to a commercial setting any more than playing Chess for 10 years is. In fact I would take the Chess player give the choice.
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