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Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

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Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#11

Post by kstrauser »

sublinear wrote: post #5

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellow…

Despite claiming to have been one, you don't seem to understand what an introvert is. I'm a functional adult. I have a wife and kids, friends, and a good job. I can speak in public if needed, although I'd prefer not to. I don't have trouble meeting new people, talking to them, and getting to know them. I'm not shy, but I am an introvert.

Being in crowds of people I'm expected to interact with on a personal level drains my energy. Baseball games, concerts, and the like? No problem! Crowds of strangers don't bother me a bit. But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and never get a moment to myself.

Being an introvert is nothing I was raised to be. My mom's one. My dad was a natural salesman: put him in a room with 50 strangers, and 10 minutes later he was on a first name basis with them all and had plans to vacation together. They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social graces. The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly antics, he was happy and fully of energy, while my mom was ready to go home and recharge for a while. I'm definitely my mom's kid on that one.

I have stuff to do. There are things I want in life. I'm doing all that successfully. But when I'm done doing them, I just want a little time to myself to exhale and relax, OK?

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#12

Post by AndrewKemendo »

sublinear wrote: post #5

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellow…

Agreed totally and Brene Brown has done great work on this topic - along with the whole Emotionally Focused Therapy movement.

My MBTI would reliably give me INTJ from ages 16-37

Now I reliably test as ENFP

What changed was my relationship with myself, and society, after coming to some hard realizations about my childhood and decades of trauma.

I’ve seen similar changes in others, and I watch as (mostly) extroverted boys have their social extroversion absolutely crushed by weight of social and gender expectations. I watch it happen with my son and his friends and it hurts. Luckily gen z is savvy and a lot of them are countering this.

This seems to drive people to choose being alone over the risk and complexity of dealing with social stuff, to the point where people find or create habits that just reinforce alienation.

If I had to guess, a good percentage of people who are “introverts” have had a lot of early trauma and so avoid engaging with people out of anxiety.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#13

Post by kgwxd »

wouldbecouldbe wrote: post #3

I didn’t know Jung came up with this concept. The power of ideas is amazing. Hardly anyone knows Jung, but everyone knows introvert vs extravert. The same goes for Freud, more have heard of him but still mostly under educated people, but everyone knows what is meant by subconscious, which was a concept he came up with. Even though they both had many weird, good and bad ideas. Their reputation as great thinkers iOS va…

It doesn't seem Jung really did the world any favors with this concept. He introduced highly inadequate terms that are mostly used to pigeonhole people into a simple box that supposedly sums up all their behavior. Turning it into a linear scale doesn't make it any better.

Don't like big crowds? Learn how to like big crowds. Don't know how to be with your own thoughts for a long time? Learn to do it. Don't say it can't be done, I've done it, and I've been told I have a learning disability. No one should lock themselves, or others, into a "personality" box, and all this nonsense should be entirely disregarded.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#14

Post by BeetleB »

akhayam wrote: post #9

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it. I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. I enco…

> I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy.

Sorry to add to the flames, but many (most?) introverts generally do find joy in deep, meaningful long conversations. It's the small talk they tend to dislike.

The problem is trying to shoehorn everything into introvert vs extrovert. The reality is it's a vector. Small talk vs meaningful conversations is an axis different from enjoying crowds vs alone time.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#15

Post by bryanlarsen »

BeetleB wrote: post #14
akhayam wrote: post #9

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it. I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. I enco…

> I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. Sorry to add to the flames, but many (most?) introverts generally do find joy in deep, meaningful long conversations. It's the small talk they tend to dislike. The problem is trying to shoehorn everything into introvert vs extrovert. The reality is it's a vector. Small talk vs meaningful conversations is an axis differ…

AFAICT whether you find a conversation a source of joy is relatively orthogonal to being an introvert. It's whether it's draining or not. A conversation can be both a source of joy and draining.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#16

Post by ryandrake »

kstrauser wrote: post #11
sublinear wrote: post #5

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellow…

Despite claiming to have been one, you don't seem to understand what an introvert is. I'm a functional adult. I have a wife and kids, friends, and a good job. I can speak in public if needed, although I'd prefer not to. I don't have trouble meeting new people, talking to them, and getting to know them. I'm not shy, but I am an introvert. Being in crowds of people I'm expected to interact with on a personal level drai…

Yea there are many dimensions: Friends vs. family vs. strangers, individuals vs. groups vs. crowds, work context vs. fun context vs. shopping/errands context. Probably many more. After COVID I think there's probably an indoor vs. outdoor setting dimension! Different people respond differently across these dimensions. I particularly have trouble with: strangers + crowds + fun context. I think my nightmare is a crowded shoulder-to-shoulder concert in a stadium. I'd panic before I even got through the front gate. On the other hand, meeting with friends and family or work gatherings are no problem. Everyone has their weirdness.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#17

Post by Given_47 »

revskill wrote: post #6

From my experience, i don't care if i'm introvert or extrovert. WHat i do really care, is, how much i understand myself. What do i really need ? How do i say no ? How do i stay motivated ?.... Those are real matters.

Definitely feel like this isn’t nearly as common as it should be (possibly cuz it can be uncomfortable for some). Additionally to what u mentioned, I regularly ask myself why I just did something and try to examine if I truly had all the right motivations.

Now this would probably be detrimental if you couldn’t trust yourself to be honest and risk rationalization taking over. Building up trust in yourself is an entirely different topic so won’t go there but anyway I’ve found these sort of exercises imperative to keeping myself in check and on the path of improving as a person, not stagnating or regressing

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#18

Post by withinboredom »

sublinear wrote: post #5

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellow…

If you're a Myers Briggs person, apparently there is a 'secondary function' that you can 'switch to' and not drain as much energy (a therapist told me this once, no idea if it is true. I left and never returned; I am not a Myers Briggs person).

Anyway, if true, then you just 'learn to be more comfortable in your secondary function' as you age.

Anyway, I am most certainly an introvert. If anything, I've become more of an introvert as I just don't even tolerate small/bs talk around me. Real conversations or GTFO. I'm a right ole' grumpy old man.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#19

Post by kekebo »

akhayam wrote: post #9

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it. I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. I enco…

The most useful definition I've found personally is basing it on which of the modes provides rather than costs energy (mental/emotional/physiological)

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#20

Post by JumpinJack_Cash »

Could be that introverts have one or both of the following characteristics:

1) They don't like politics as a mean to reach one's goals. Maybe for moral reasons or because they consider it cheating or because they deem it 'not close enough to the action'.

2) Social time spent with other people is like any other activity, maybe introverts need or want more time to feel satisfied, much like some people are satisfied riding a jetski while others need to be able to do tricks and acrobatics in order to be happy about the whole experience. Maybe introverts hold out in order to reach a higher level of experience?

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