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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#741

Post by geysersam »

oblio wrote: post #737
geysersam wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also myopic to think that having a large conventional army that deters rivals from attacking smaller trade partners is not beneficial. No one suggested that it isn't beneficial. What I said is that the benefit has to be weighted against the alternative benefits. > China is arming up at a huge pace, even outside of nukes. I'd argue that one large reason they're doing so is the threat they perceive themselves to…

That's not a valid reason since the US has had a large military since 80 years ago. Don't fall into that trap.

Are you saying that China doesn't have a valid reason for having a large military, but the US does?

That sounds like a difficult position to maintain...

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#742

Post by oska »

karp773 wrote: post #619
HPsquared wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eisenhower put it well. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick sch…

With all due respect to Eisenhower, this is an example of incredible political myopia. A country does not exist in a political vacuum and has to be able to protect its freedom and the very right to exist. So freedom is not free but comes at a price. How high the price is depends on the situation. Sometimes it's very high, unfortunately. Complaining about this fact is as productive as complainig about gravity: if only…

> A country does not exist in a political vacuum and has to be able to protect its freedom and the very right to exist

Do you think that Eisenhower, a professional soldier and 5 star general, doesn't understand that? You're not understanding / misrepresenting what he is saying in that quote. It's about the cost of a military and how it has to be balanced against the productive and social needs of a country. A country that is grossly over-spending on the military, as Eisenhower perceived it already back then, and particularly in the case of the US, when that military is used for force and power projection, not defence, is strangling the society that it pretends to protect. This has been the history of the US over at least the last 50 years (when Eisenhower made this fore-warning speech).

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#743

Post by tekknik »

geysersam wrote: post #627
karp773 wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect to Eisenhower, this is an example of incredible political myopia. A country does not exist in a political vacuum and has to be able to protect its freedom and the very right to exist. So freedom is not free but comes at a price. How high the price is depends on the situation. Sometimes it's very high, unfortunately. Complaining about this fact is as productive as complainig about gravity: if only…

It's not a fact that the US needs to spend 50% of the global military budget. If anything is myopic, that is. It can still be argued that it's worth the expenditure. But the cost should be weighted against the alternatives. Neither Russia or China can be said to threaten the US with their military, except with nuclear weapons, but no defence budget protects against those.

> but no defence budget protects against those.

what?!? what do missile defense systems do then? nothing?

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#744

Post by tekknik »

geysersam wrote: post #741
oblio wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a valid reason since the US has had a large military since 80 years ago. Don't fall into that trap.

Are you saying that China doesn't have a valid reason for having a large military, but the US does ? That sounds like a difficult position to maintain...

China threatening to invade Taiwan, what’s your opinion now? What exactly are they building up for?

Are you from China?

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#745

Post by versteegen »

tekknik wrote: post #743
geysersam wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a fact that the US needs to spend 50% of the global military budget. If anything is myopic, that is. It can still be argued that it's worth the expenditure. But the cost should be weighted against the alternatives. Neither Russia or China can be said to threaten the US with their military, except with nuclear weapons, but no defence budget protects against those.

> but no defence budget protects against those. what?!? what do missile defense systems do then? nothing?

In practice, nothing (against multiple multi-warhead ICBMs). If your foe only has one or two ICBMs maybe you have even odds. Against any nuclear-armed nation other than present-day North Korea, nothing. Even if you could intercept 90% of missiles/warheads if the opponent fires 20 (or 2000), you're screwed. There are multiple stages of flight in which one can attempt interception, but only the final stage after separation of warheads is realistic (which multiples the number of projectiles to intercept greatly): you can't intercept at accent unless you're very close to the launch site, hitting stuff in space with directed energy is defeated by a simple mirror, and hitting it with an inceptor is not feasible.

An article I picked at random:

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/02/no-us-missile-defense-sy...

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#746

Post by pasabagi »

nvm0n1 wrote: post #716
pasabagi wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on the kind of contract you have. Comparing different legal systems and different practical implementations of those systems is hard - but I think the basic claim, that there's a inverse correlation between employee's rights and economic growth, isn't visible within the EU or elsewhere. The UK is a good example because they have aggressively reduced the safeguards for workers (between 2014-2017 it was es…

It's silly to claim British companies were flouting employment law on a massive scale just a few years ago. That wasn't the case, especially as even pre-2017 legal costs were awarded to the winner and you can get a year's wages as winnings. There's a big gap between the US and UK in this regard. The UK has and enforces the concept of an unfair dismissal as distinct from being fired due to discrimination. The US has t…

> It's silly to claim British companies were flouting employment law on a massive scale j

1. I wasn't claiming that.

2. It's not silly at all. British companies were and are flouting employment laws[0].

3. If the plural of anecdote is not annecdata, what's the plural of a cherry picked, unsourced, and likely misrepresented court ruling? Fiction?

[0]: https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/06/14/british-employe...

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#747

Post by ffhhttt »

Cymrukicks wrote: post #599
ffhhttt wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> status as reserve currency is exactly why the US GDP has been overtaking the EU USD was the reserve currency in the 90s and mid 2000s. Back then the Euro was very strong and some large European countries were close to overtaking US in GDP per capita. The last 10 years have more or less been a lost decade in most of Western Europe because (amongst other things) it almost entirely missed out on the tech boom.

[flagged]

> boom certainly not economically.

I’m not that certain about this.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#748

Post by midasuni »

gruez wrote: post #235
alfalfasprout wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way real wages are tracked also undersell this trend. In theory since 2008 real wages have been increasing... in practice, housing and other costs like childcare have increased astronomically during that period negating any real gains.

>In theory since 2008 real wages have been increasing... in practice, housing and other costs like childcare have increased astronomically during that period negating any real gains. That's categorically not true. Adjusting for inflation, wages today are up 6.8% compared to 2008. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

You point to the us when the article is about europe

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#749

Post by ffhhttt »

dereg wrote: post #504
ffhhttt wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to measure the standard of living there a much better indicators than GDP per capita for that. PPP is also a deeply flawed concept because comparing the quality of goods and services in the context of different consumption patterns. However if you really want to use you should look at median income (with social transfers etc.) rather than GDP.

Median income is not a better measure because it is blind to changes in population composition over time. Series of median income figures doesn't actually track anything. For instance, a country that accepts more lower-skilled immigrants will see its median income figures grow less than countries that accept fewer of those immigrants. Is the immigrant-accepting country poorer as a result? The only way that median inc…

Or you could look at inequality, Gini and/or the 20th, 80th etc. percentiles instead.

> Is the immigrant-accepting country poorer as a result?

Yes, in this specific case it would be poorer per capita.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#750

Post by amrocha »

didntcheck wrote: post #544
amrocha wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumption is a terrible proxy for quality of life. It's also terribly USAian of you.

Not really. Europeans aren't some superior noble ascetics. People want to consume, and their demand exceeds their ability in practically all situations. So USians are getting more of what they want while most Europeans would jump at the ability to do the same. For the record, I am European myself

I'm not saying Europeans don't consume.

I'm saying no one except USians would say "I consume more than you, therefore my quality of life is higher".

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