Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#691

Post by ineedasername » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 5:11 AM UTC

blobbers wrote: post #199

scarmig wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the theory that, by forcing the kids with the most engaged parents to go to schools with the kids of less engaged parents, the engaged parents will drive school districts to implement good educational policies. In reality, though, that doesn't seem to have worked. School board elections have very low turnout usually, and the people elected to them are disproportionately ideologues who treat engaged parents wi…

Wow you hit the nail right on the head. That's exactly what's happened at our board level. The PTA of the school itself is the involved parents, and the schoolboard has the utmost contempt for them! None of the involved parents are willing to put in the effort or have the desire to be elected to the schoolboard though.

My experience coincides with yours with respect to the disregard school boards have for, not just the PTA, but the will of parents in general. Although I don't think that, at its base, it started with contempt-- I think it began with actual disregard or maybe apathy in favor of their own pet projects and ideas of how things should be regardless of the parents' wishes. Contempt only entered the picture when parents voices dissent. But that's only what I see locally for my district, I'd certainly believe you if you reasserted that no, in your district it did actually begin with contempt as well.

With respect to the GP comment, I don't think things are quite as pre-planned as a deliberate effort to have engaged parents sort of subsidize the lack of effort by less engaged parents. That might be the net result, but attributing that to a deliberate and coordinated plan on the part of school boards or the broader public education system is, to my thinking, giving them too much credit in their ability to so coordinate and engage in such complex efforts. They bicker far too much among themselves pursuing their own agendas to agree long enough for that level of strategy.

And there are on occasion parents truly willing to put in the effort and get elected, but end up quickly disillusioned on their hopes for affecting any change and leave to spend their time more productively. Often enough those who seek & stay in these board position aren't even parents of children who currently or even attended the schools in the district.

Again though, I'd temper my statements with the caveat that they're based on my own singular experience, and I'd readily believe that elsewhere there are boards who arrive at the same state of affairs with a bit more deliberate actions. It's all a mess.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#692

Post by slt2021 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 5:14 AM UTC

defrost wrote: post #690

slt2021 wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping birth rate is not a problem at all, Europe Scandinavia Australia has dropping birth rate but much better social situation. The rest of your argument is incoherent and does not have a point, so I dont event understand what is it about. Overpolicing is a myth, because cops are policing where crime actually happens. Doesnt make sense for police to patrol law abiding medium/high class neighborhoods if crime does…

> cops are policing where crime actually happens. Alternatively, crime happens where police are. Eg. Police might excessively arrest in particular communities as a form of overbearing bullying .. and the arrest and conviction rates in these areas climb. There is much written about this, your take in your comment above seems naive at best. The world is rarely as first order simple as you appear to believe it to be. Of…

The only causal link between less police leading to less crime: is fewer police reports. People give up reporting crime if police is nowhere to be found.

Look at san frasicko: people wont even bother registering crime if their car window broke or cat stolen.

On paper crime rate is lower, in reality it is different.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#693

Post by dumpsterdiver » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 5:19 AM UTC

slt2021 wrote: post #688

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak of parents who have landed themselves in prison and become addicted to drugs as if they have no responsibility for these things. "Parental involvement" will always be waiting right where they left it if ever those parents can manage to stop doing drugs or going to prison.

My problem with this term is it centers around parents, regardless of whether they are alive/free/sober/gainfully employed/mentally stable/etc. But kids are going to school today and now, they cannot wait for their parents to get out of jail and get sober. These kids need solution asap and waiting for their parents to show up and get involved is a waste of time - and is a primary reason why US is failing kids from lo…

> My problem with this term is it centers around parents

To be fair, the term in question is "parental involvement". It's understandable that some might be confused about why the "parental" part of the phrase is offensive.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#694

Post by slt2021 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 5:39 AM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #300

toast0 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is the case, while avoiding the privileged ones to run ahead is not ideal, the alternative of doing nothing is even worse (which is in practice what a lot of people criticizing this measure prone: they did not have any plan to change anything before the subject was introduced). > I think that the idea is not to "dumb down" the kids, but to have a goal that everyone can achieve instead of a goal that is imposs…

Let me get this straight. We're behind the rest of our class and we're going to catch up to them by going slower than they are? -Bart Simpson People who fall behind don't need a slower pace. They need to move faster. That means not just more attention but longer hours. But there is only so much time. A school wanting to maximize its graduation rate needs to spend less energy on teaching people who are good at a subje…

Why not everyone do the math at their level of complexity?

Good students will learn complex Math, while struggling students will learn Math-I kr something simple.

That way everyone feels challenged

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#695

Post by slt2021 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 5:42 AM UTC

cauch wrote: post #483

dmitrygr wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how that would help with the feelgoods, but how will this advance science and technology? The very things that allow you (and me) to be here pontificating about this instead of sustenance farming.

Apparently, the measure was not to "cancel advanced classes", but to replace advanced algebra by something more challenging, more engaging and developing more the scientific brain of student (in this case, advanced data science). It looks like a lot of people who are screaming at the end of science haven't even realized the problem may just be in their head.

Blatant lies and False, math curriculum has been dumbed down over the years in the name of equity.

In fact, math curriculum has never been made “more complex”, quite the opposite is true. Especially with recent trend of “math is racist”

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#696

Post by Slava_Propanei » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:05 AM UTC

nancyhn wrote: post #529

btilly wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry. DEI programs have this covered as well. Stop using standardized tests to get in. And then just aim for the perfect "socially desirable" mix. Regardless of ability.

Can someone explain how DEI programs got so embeded despite being flagrantly regressive?

[dead]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#697

Post by Slava_Propanei » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:10 AM UTC

nomat wrote: post #568

recursive wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I meant to believe that all students are equally capable? That's a tough sell.

students definitely are not all equally capable in one aspect for sure: their ability to hire or provide private tutoring outside of school hours. Cutting access to state-funded programs (such as algebra classes in middle school) just means the rich children get even more of a leg up on college admissions and life in general.

[dead]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#698

Post by cauch » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:15 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #641

cauch wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, people are not asking to do this, lol. The complaint is about the education report that opposed students being allowed to study algebra in advanced classes. Obviously, nobody is just coming and saying "lol, I hate children, I want people to be dumb, I will stop them being educated". The reason this report proposes to replace algebra by data science is because this report argues that data science is making peopl…

> The reason this report proposes to replace algebra Ok, so it is replacing stuff! Not sure why you had to go through so many posts to just admit that. And people have a problem with what is being replaced. If you wanted to say that support the replacement of algebra, you should have just said that from the beginning instead of doing this whole rigmarole. But other people very much do not want this option taken away…

> But other people very much do not want this option taken away from them and step one to talking about this is at least admitting that, yes, algebra is being replaced.

Of course algebra is being replaced, where do I say anything different.

I guess my mistake is assuming my interlocutors are not idiots and want to debate the reason of the replacement rather than just staying on "I like Algebra so I'm crying like a baby".

> And people have a problem with what is being replaced.

This is what I don't understand. They don't have any arguments to support the fact that the replacement is not bringing more supported "pro" than "con".

All they say is "I can see one good thing to Algebra, so it implies that this measure can only be a bad one", which is obviously incorrect. In real life, measures usually replace things that are not all bad by things that are better. The point is that you need to weight the pros and the cons. Here, it feels like people are just saying "I don't want to hear the pros, I know one con, and it means it's a bad idea".

I personally like Algebra, and I would have loved it to stay. The same way I like the convenience of some fastfood. But when a study shows that for the same price, they can replace a fastfood menu to a better menu in a school, the normal thing to do is to weight the pros and cons, not just cry because I prefer fastfood.

It is interesting to see that some people who present themselves as on the side of reason will act so irrationally to oppose some proposal without caring of the pros and cons, just because it feels negative in their feelings.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#699

Post by themitigating » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:27 AM UTC

linuxhansl wrote: post #326

themitigating wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could get extra help after school. Should a teacher just move as fast as the best student? You seem to want the education system to mirror capitalism which I find morally reprehensible.

I can get extra help, instead of everybody else being slowed down. And come on please, not slowing everybody does not mean that the teacher moves "as fast as the best student". What you call morally reprehensible is rooted in your own black and white thinking in this matter.

What if you can't get extra help, what if that's not enough? A child doesn't have that much control over their lives, who knows what is going on at home. Maybe class is all they have.

You're right about my interpretation as black and white. I still think it's an issue if some or even one child (assuming they don't have some mental issue) is left behind in a class. Meaning that the teacher won't slow down for one child but the pace is acceptable for everyone.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#700

Post by noptd » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:30 AM UTC

synetic wrote: post #404

ddd00001 wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how you can read that and think that the issue is spending. The answer is (and always will be) human capital. You could airdrop TJHSST kids into a literal warzone and they would do well. Smart kids are smart because they are smart. There is no magic dirt, and "muh multicausal forces" is pure cope. People like you got ahold of SF's school system and made Lowell lottery entrance. They swore that it w…

I don’t think the issue is spending. My main point is that school vouchers are bad. I did say that the method of school funding is idiotic. Smart kids dropped into a war zone may or may not do well. They might die for one thing. They might get so traumatized by the event that they are unable to cope in life. Change someone’s circumstances drastically enough then it won’t be possible to know what the outcome is.

>My main point is that school vouchers are bad.

Which you keep repeating without providing any supporting argument or citations, hence the downvotes.