Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#671

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:20 AM UTC

cmh89 wrote: post #669

s1artibartfast wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind my point was that the political emphasis on race is at a high point. I agree that if activist put a lot of emphasis on this and make it more visible that this feeling will be stronger. That doesn't negate the point above, it supports it. Sure, people can argue over how productive the additional attention is for actually resolving issues, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I merely staying that attenti…

>Keep in mind my point was that the political emphasis on race is at a high point. A high point compared to what? The 90s? You have some recency bias in your understanding of this topic. > agree that if activist put a lot of emphasis on this and make it more visible that this feeling will be stronger. That doesn't negate the point above, it supports it. You didn't make a point, you said something was 'interesting' wh…

I'm honestly not sure what part of what I said you are objecting to.

People are more aware than in the 90's. You don't find that interesting but I do. Cool?

My point was that the US cares about race a lot right now. Generally and relatively. Do you disagree?

If you have a central point you are trying to convey, stop beating around the bush and say it.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#672

Post by tootie » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:22 AM UTC

slt2021 wrote: post #643

tootie wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell does pushing back on single-family homes look like? Christian fundamentalism? Think about this from a perspective of getting positive outcomes from the actual world that exists. Divorce happens. Unplanned pregnancy happens. Family planning is being actively dismantled by the same people who are pushing for increased privatization of schooling and decreases in social safety nets. I don't think that's a c…

it all comes down to Mother's decision to sustain pregnancy in unstable relationship. Currently America incentivizes single mother childhood because all social handouts are increased if 1) mother is poor/low income 2) has dependents 3) more dependents => more handouts Things like Section 8, Medicaid, SNAP, EBT - were supposed to have social safety net - the lowest standard that any mother can rely on. It ended up tha…

This reads like rational debate, but is really just pure conservative fantasy and at least a little racist. Every time you mention black people in the hood, I assume it means you have never been within 100 miles of an urban environment and have no idea what you're talking about. You act like poverty and broken families only exist with black people.

Welfare Queens don't exist. Absolutely no human being in existence since the New Deal has considered having a baby to be a profit-making venture. I can submit that maybe some, but vanishingly few consider a life on government assistance to be sustainable. The reason something like Medicaid can be a trap is because private healthcare in this country is capitalist hellscape. ACA made the miniscule effort to raise the Medicaid eligibility window and half the country rejected it. Programs like Medicaid, CHIP, SNAP are intended to prevent descent in penury and/or to protect the completely innocent children. Less so the parents.

Your opinion is really just the lowest form of victim blaming. These problems are almost entirely unique to America in the developed world. We have undeniable objective proof that being more generous with benefits improves everyone's lives and does not breed dependence.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3487602 https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/03/welfare... https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/business/the-myth-of-welf... https://epod.cid.harvard.edu/article/dispelling-myth-welfare...

And for good measure here's someone who thinks dependence is genetic and all the people who think he's a terrible scientist: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/09/adam-perkins...

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#673

Post by tootie » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:23 AM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #603

tootie wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell does pushing back on single-family homes look like? Christian fundamentalism? Think about this from a perspective of getting positive outcomes from the actual world that exists. Divorce happens. Unplanned pregnancy happens. Family planning is being actively dismantled by the same people who are pushing for increased privatization of schooling and decreases in social safety nets. I don't think that's a c…

Stop incentivizing single parenthood. This reestablishes social norms around staying together as they (the parents) need each other. Trying to approximate that via social engineering and creating clients of the state has failed for 50+ years.

No one has ever incentivized single parenthood. We offered protection for children born into difficult circumstances not of their making.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#674

Post by gnicholas » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:26 AM UTC

htfu wrote: post #606

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my, I read your first link in its entirety and, "Yikes." The Public comment #5 section regarding chapter 12 (which covers homework and assessments) was especially shocking. Chapter 12 in the 2005 version of the CMF was 5 pages long. The same chapter in the current draft is 70 pages long, almost entirely due to a slew of opinions against homework and other testing practices. The entire CMF draft was (and still is e…

> To be clear, the specific policy I just mentioned really is part of the document - allowing students to always redo work for a better grade. If you've learned the material and fulfill the requirements, and the course is still ongoing, why should it matter you were late? Are you teaching the subject, or is [literally every course all the time] really mostly a study in time management? (hint: it's not for the student…

It's not fair to other students if there's a no-penalty late policy. If some students turn in their work on time, and others turn it in late, it's not fair to the former if the latter have zero penalty. The reason for this is that the students who turned in the homework on time had to make other sacrifices in order to do so. For example, they might have studied less for a test in another class in order to turn in their homework on time.

This unfairness exists unless all teachers allow for late submission for all assignments and re-taking of all tests. If this were allowed, then students would all take tests multiple times, so they could cram for the specific questions on the test (not the entirety of the course materials — the rest of the material could be forgotten/never learned).

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#675

Post by tootie » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:27 AM UTC

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #639

tootie wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell does pushing back on single-family homes look like? Christian fundamentalism? Think about this from a perspective of getting positive outcomes from the actual world that exists. Divorce happens. Unplanned pregnancy happens. Family planning is being actively dismantled by the same people who are pushing for increased privatization of schooling and decreases in social safety nets. I don't think that's a c…

> What the hell does pushing back on single-family homes look like? A previous poster spelled it out: > by encouraging and aggrandizing stable two-parent families instead of getting schools and teachers to fill proxy parenting roles You seem to be thinking of "pushing back" as some sort of attack upon single parents, when I believe that the original spirit of the comment was more along the lines of: Let's strive to s…

[flagged]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#676

Post by slt2021 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:36 AM UTC

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #654

slt2021 wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> parental involvement How does that work for black mother of three kids on social programs, whose biological father is incarcerated/nowhere to be found around? This is the typical story of low achievement/high crime kids in public school system.

You realize that even by applying your question to a sad scenario you are still asking the basic question, "How does parental involvement work," right? Parental involvement "works" by taking an active interest in your child's activities and development. That's it.

You cant magically start “involving” absent parents thats what I wanted to say, problem is much deeper than “oh, it is just parental involvement”

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#677

Post by yes_really » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:36 AM UTC

cauch wrote: post #89

The author says > The idea that offering children fewer educational resources through the public school system will help the poor kids catch up with rich ones, or help the Black kids catch up with the White and Asian ones, is unsupported by any available evidence of which I am aware. I was wondering if some people are aware of studies supporting this strategy. I could try to dig them up, but I remember few studies de…

> I think that the idea is not to "dumb down" the kids, but to have a goal that everyone can achieve instead of a goal that is impossible to achieve for some [...]

You don't need to have a unified "goal". Just let the faster students learn more. Note California public schools started *removing* optional classes for faster students.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#678

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:37 AM UTC

tootie wrote: post #673

nemo44x wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop incentivizing single parenthood. This reestablishes social norms around staying together as they (the parents) need each other. Trying to approximate that via social engineering and creating clients of the state has failed for 50+ years.

No one has ever incentivized single parenthood. We offered protection for children born into difficult circumstances not of their making.

There’s 0 evidence of that. What has happened is the lower class family structure has been decimated as generation after generation of mother becomes a client of the state and dads aren’t around because they aren’t actually needed. The kids have not benefited from this (there’s no metric that shows this and in fact the achievement gap has widened and prison outcomes are increased for lower class kids) and in fact are probably worse off.

But, the state has created a massive bureaucracy to manage this and gobs of money to get distributed to both public and private managers of these clients. Yeah, it’s about the kids lol.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#679

Post by gnicholas » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:39 AM UTC

slt2021 wrote: post #636

rhaway84773 wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it’s vogue to ridicule DEI programs, but the reality is that as the blog post points out, these measures achieve the opposite of DEI (all 3 letters of those). Even standardized tests. There is already evidence that standardized tests reduce equality. Which is not surprising at all because standardized tests are the one part of a college application that someone can excel at purely with concentrated hard work o…

rich white people introduce these regressive DEI policies so that smart poor and not-connected kids could not compete and enter elite ranks of society, and their (relatively dumb, but rich&well connected) kids could easily outcompete everyone. 1. It is incredibly hard for rich&connected kid to excel among smart & hard-working individuals 2. If barrier is lowered, and overall pool is "diverse" in terms of IQ and abili…

Is there evidence of this?

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#680

Post by dumpsterdiver » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 3:45 AM UTC

slt2021 wrote: post #676

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that even by applying your question to a sad scenario you are still asking the basic question, "How does parental involvement work," right? Parental involvement "works" by taking an active interest in your child's activities and development. That's it.

You cant magically start “involving” absent parents thats what I wanted to say, problem is much deeper than “oh, it is just parental involvement”

Nor can a child be raised without at least one parental type figure. There is no magic involved.