Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#481

Post by cmh89 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:41 PM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #459

chociej wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also depends heavily on how you define "need". Calculus changed the way I view many, many concepts and phenomena. I think we present things like calculus as dryly as possible, and only to those blessed few who we perceive as able to understand it, and in doing so, we deprive so many people of a useful new way of considering problems. Whether it ends up being critical to their chosen career seems like a really narr…

> I think we present things like calculus as dryly as possible A lot of this is because the hiring pipeline has dried up. I went to a top hs here in the Bay Area and had teachers who were very knowledgeable and invested in STEM education. Because of extremely low salaries when factoring in CoL, a replacement pipeline hasn't formed. I had 4-5 of my classmates in HS end up majoring in STEM and minoring in Education at…

I have friends who are/were teachers. I can't imagine why anyone would subject themselves to that. Low pay, spoiled out of control children, their evn worse parents, active shooter drills/real active shooters, fucking TikTok.

I wouldn't do that job if it paid double what I make now.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#482

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:43 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #304

eitally wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every mathematician disagrees because their focus isn't learning or teaching children foundational number sense and math concepts that will help them lead successful lives. You guys are talking past each other, and the guidelines in question are aimed at the kids in primary math education, not academic and applied math, where your statement applies better.

> their focus isn't learning or teaching children foundational number sense and math concepts that will help them lead successful lives They teach undergrads. They are saying a student graduating from this framework, without outside tutoring, would not have the skills necessary to learn entry-level undergraduate math. The data-science component, additionally, seems entirely designed to support a private consulting co…

[deleted]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#483

Post by cauch » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:44 PM UTC

dmitrygr wrote: post #401

sandworm101 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is measured is what gets done. If schools are judged by graduation rates, then yes, fewer scientists but more people graduating highschool. Or we go the other way and judge schools by how many elite scientists they produce. Identify the best students early. Give them everything so that they can all become neuroscientists. Abandon all those who struggle in order to focus resources on the future doctors. Imho a pu…

I can see how that would help with the feelgoods, but how will this advance science and technology? The very things that allow you (and me) to be here pontificating about this instead of sustenance farming.

Apparently, the measure was not to "cancel advanced classes", but to replace advanced algebra by something more challenging, more engaging and developing more the scientific brain of student (in this case, advanced data science).

It looks like a lot of people who are screaming at the end of science haven't even realized the problem may just be in their head.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#484

Post by misterbishop » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #330

misterbishop wrote: post #125

This just is a total misunderstanding of what's being proposed, and a hamfisted excuse to dress up reactionary stupidity as a defense of "Math". The changes aren't "refusing to teach kids math", they are a better approach to math. Modern approaches emphasize number sense (aka actual understanding) over formulas. Algebra has historically been a kind of gatekeeping in middle school between kids who plug in the formulas…

> In general we need deeper foundational knowledge beyond memorization of notation. This sounds like you're advocating for more memorization of notation, earlier, so children will have the time to be taught the deeper "foundational" knowledge that requires that notation. Otherwise, I don't know what you're talking about. > Algebra has historically been a kind of gatekeeping in middle school between kids who plug in t…

Here's a program with the goals I'm talking about: https://www.gse.upenn.edu/academics/research/responsive-math...

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#485

Post by BeFlatXIII » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

> Teach kids more, not less

It's an odd combination of teaching kids too much in elementary school and too little in high. The children are exposed to a far more comprehensive curriculum at the expense of never practicing the skills enough to master them. As soon as summer resets their brains, they suddenly have large gaps in knowledge that slow next year's learning.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#486

Post by Hermitian909 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

currymj wrote: post #274

You can imagine the following perspective: - Most people don't need to learn calculus at all, and it's fine if the few weird students who do start when they get to college (maybe the advanced students can learn single-variable calculus in high school). - For pure signaling reasons, taking calculus in high school has become very important for college admissions. - In order to take calculus in high school, you need to…

This is a good analysis, but you're missing another angle: quite a few kids are not developmentally ready[0] for algebra in 8th grade but most are ready in 9th grade. By forcing kids who are not developmentally ready into algebra you generally do more harm then good (most of those kids will hate math for the rest of their lives). This problem also occurs earlier in school life with fractions. When I was in education I saw pushing students too early like this do a lot of damage that had to be cleaned up by tutors at a later date and was totally unnecessary.

I even think Calculus could still be achieved by the end of high school with the right curriculum choices - you can teach a lot of calculus concepts to grace schoolers if you elide the actual mechanics of computation. Anecdotally, students who were pushed through that sort of curriculum earlier in middle school tended to breeze through high school calc.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive...

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#487

Post by AlanYx » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:46 PM UTC

feoren wrote: post #462

AlanYx wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is my best guess about the line of thinking that motivates these "no advanced math" policies. You've explained the thought process of the "reformers" fairly well, but there is another additional element that's important as well: a sizeable contingent of people believe that advanced math itself is intrinsically bad or negative. Usually this is either because math is fundamentally exclusionary in some core way, o…

> the reason they're not all getting competitive scores with good shots at college is because advanced math (being intrinsically negative/evil) is ruining it I ... I don't understand. This is literally the craziest conspiracy theory I've ever heard. Here's the thing: if a shadow cabal of lizard-people were actually using space lasers to mind control everyone into thinking the Earth is round so we never discover their…

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but the objections are not typically phrased in the type of language you're using.

A typical example is something like this, from Louie (J.Res.Math.Ed. 2017):

>Through the lens of the culture of exclusion, students who appear mathematically gifted are viewed as intelligent, whereas others are myopically perceived as “slow,” “remedial,” and “special needs.” These perceived differences are used to justify stratification such that the culture of exclusion in mathematics education shapes access to intellectually stimulating learning opportunities, prestigious educational programs, lucrative careers, and high-status identities. Furthermore, because ability categories are mapped onto other socially constructed categories, the culture of exclusion is both a product of and a tool for the maintenance of racial, gender, linguistic, economic, and other hierarchies.

It is at its core a form of anti-intellectualism, that is true, but often emanating from other intellectual ideas from the academy.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#488

Post by BeFlatXIII » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

kwhitefoot wrote: post #370

pwthornton wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a way to have time to cover Calculus in high school while still taking it slower: Block scheduling. My high school shifted to it. It's like a college day where you have four longer classes instead of eight shorter ones. Courses are semester-long, not year-long. This means you can take two math classes in one year (algebra in the fall and geometry in the spring). This also enabled my high school to offer AP C…

Eight different classes in one day? How can that work?

Not well.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#489

Post by vkou » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #322

altcognito wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, The community is not religious by definition in the constitution. The whole gambit with vouchers is that you are laundering money for religious institutions by putting it under "personal" choice.

It must suck going through life thinking that everyone "other" from you is out to fuck you over.

If the political arm of the fundamentalist movement focused on morality policing its own members, instead of trying to force its values on the rest of us, we'd have way less of a problem with it.

It is very actively 'trying to fuck us over'. And it's winning, hard, in both the 6-3 sphere, on the legislative bench, and in many others.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#490

Post by BeFlatXIII » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:50 PM UTC

DSMan195276 wrote: post #411

currymj wrote: post #274

You can imagine the following perspective: - Most people don't need to learn calculus at all, and it's fine if the few weird students who do start when they get to college (maybe the advanced students can learn single-variable calculus in high school). - For pure signaling reasons, taking calculus in high school has become very important for college admissions. - In order to take calculus in high school, you need to…

You've gotten a whole lot of replies that seem to miss your point, but I'd say that I've experienced that exact thing - to get to Calc in your senior year you needed to have gotten on a very specific track of math courses back in middle school, and likely your parents needed to know about it to make sure you got in. Otherwise, what appeared to be a very inconsequential choice at middle school actually decided your en…

I like to call it "the math ladder" for this reason. Math is uniquely cumulative, so being shoved off the ladder prematurely precludes future advancement in a way that gaps in knowledge of the US Civil War have minimal impact on learning East Asian history.