Live data from Hacker News

Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

noahpinion.blog

261–270 of 816 posts

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#261
Does anyone have a less biased article about this to tell if this is actually a thing?

I remember the controversy over Common Core Math and I realized a lot of people complaining about it weren't very good at math and their criticism was more a reflection of that than valid criticism.

Now it's hard to believe when people complain about something when education is involved.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#262
post #89

The author says > The idea that offering children fewer educational resources through the public school system will help the poor kids catch up with rich ones, or help the Black kids catch up with the White and Asian ones, is unsupported by any available evidence of which I am aware. I was wondering if some people are aware of studies supporting this strategy. I could try to dig them up, but I remember few studies de…

> If it is the case, while avoiding the privileged ones to run ahead is not ideal, the alternative of doing nothing is even worse (which is in practice what a lot of people criticizing this measure prone: they did not have any plan to change anything before the subject was introduced).

> I think that the idea is not to "dumb down" the kids, but to have a goal that everyone can achieve instead of a goal that is impossible to achieve for some of the poor kids anyway. See under this lens, the proposal makes more sense: the lectures are given at the NORMAL pace, without assuming that extra learning is made at home while it is known that this extra learning is impossible to do for some.

The NORMAL pace is too slow for some kids who aren't even doing any math at home. The solution to kids learn at different paces and some kids can learn at a faster pace if they have resources at home, but not all kids have resources at home isn't force everyone onto the normal pace. It's to make sure all kids have access to resources.

If it's hard to get resources, then maybe you can free up some by adjusting class sizes. Instead of 60 kids, and 20 kids / class room all at the same pace; you can take the 30 kids capable of doing a faster pace and put them in the fast paced room, then have two classes of 15 kids at a slower pace and now they've got more time for individual instruction, and you didn't have to hire anyone.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#263
post #89

The author says > The idea that offering children fewer educational resources through the public school system will help the poor kids catch up with rich ones, or help the Black kids catch up with the White and Asian ones, is unsupported by any available evidence of which I am aware. I was wondering if some people are aware of studies supporting this strategy. I could try to dig them up, but I remember few studies de…

But then engaged parents will take their kids to Kumon, and rich parents will take their kids to private school. Their kids will then mop the floor against all other kids, including engaged kids without engaged parents, that would have benefited from more advanced classes. Is that equality?

of course not, but all of this insanity is just based on feelings, not actual outcomes.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#264
post #92

It's hyperbolic and not a totally fair comparison, but reading this, I had to go find and reread "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut. https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Berge... When the means to achieve equality is to handicap the strong, we're going the wrong way. It would be more expensive and harder to try instead to invest in and help those with additional needs. But nobody is interested in…

> It would be more expensive and harder to try instead to invest in and help those with additional needs. But nobody is interested in spending more to help others

Underneath all of this is a budgetary trade-off. Quite often there are funds to pay either for more support for struggling students or advanced opportunities for advanced students, but not both.

That budgetary problem is ultimately fueled by larger socio-economic challenges, including high cost of living that is out of pace with tax revenue for school funding, high public pension costs, and ever-increasing demands on public schools to be social service hubs dealing with fallout from things like drug and violence epidemics. Those are expensive problems to treat.

Furthermore, those problems are not distributed uniformly across society. They are heavily disproportionately present in lower income communities, whether they're urban or rural.

Schools in uniformly well-off communities don't need to worry about treating these problems to anywhere near the same degree, so they need fewer behavioural and educational specialists just to keep the classroom functional, if they can do that at all.

Well-off children from supportive homes and communities are cheaper to educate. They arrive in the classroom with years of preschool and summers of educationally stimulating camps. They don't come to school hungry.

As a society, we could address some of the deeper inequities in opportunity, to relieve low income schools of the additional societal burdens we place on them, but those sorts of measures are even more polarising than school funding.

Therefore, we end up with the default, which is individuals optimizing purely for their own interest (i.e. the push for school vouchers), not what is more sustainable for society.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#265
post #124

> It is difficult to find words to describe how bad this idea is without descending into abject rudeness. I think it's worth it in this case. You have to be an absolute moron or someone with a sinister agenda to think that decreasing the standard helps the community in any way. Especially idiotic to call this "progressive".

I was going for “batshit insane” but I absolutely love your use of the word “sinister”.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#266
post #87

Stuff like this is why I will remain a proponent for true vouchers for the rest of my life. No parent should be stuck without options when educational governance goes sideways like this. Pull your kid. Find them a school that gives them the greatest opportunity to succeed and use the funds earmarked for their education to ensure they receive it. Currently, options are restricted to parents who can afford to move to a…

Charter school vouchers are a corrupt way to siphon off public funds.

So taxes the state collects from me automatically become 'public funds' I have no say over?

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#267
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you could fix the system, it would have been fixed by now. If you have a kid today, you have 5-6 years to fix the system before it starts failing them. Your kid will be grown before any meaningful change is made, and any harms caused by the current system will be fully baked in. If you have money, you have an escape hatch right now. Vouchers make that escape hatch available to more people. Public education doe…

You need a decent school option within an acceptable travel distance. There are many who don't have a good choice like that.

New schools appear as soon as the money is available.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#268
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Places with public school vouchers as law allow said vouchers to be used at 100% religious schools This isn't a requirement for vouchers. You can simply state that religious schools aren't eligible.

This is incorrect as of last year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson_v._Makin

There is a powerful political and legal movement behind the idea that state-funded religious indoctrination is not only permitted, but required.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#269
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely don’t want religious brainwashing. I also definitely do not want the indoctrination that is taking place in our public schools.

[flagged]

Would it be possible to interpret the comment you're responding to more charitably and respond to that?
Post reply on HN