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Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#21

Post by squarefoot »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #9

Little known secret --- "fancy screens" are often used as marketing gimmicks but they can actually reduce the manufacturing cost of modern autos. In an environment where control systems are already digital/computerized for valid functional reasons, adding a display screen is more cost effective than analog instruments. I am old school and I prefer the analog style; however, it is fairly easy to simulate analog instru…

> I am old school and I prefer the analog style; however, it is fairly easy to simulate analog instrumentation on a digital display and some manufacturers are doing it very well.

I'm old school as well and although I love the feel of a real indicator, screens can be effectively used as really good output devices if well designed, but touch screens? Just no: they're fragile, slow, and don't give any feedback; if I had to pick one between fully mechanical and fully digital (therefore with touch screen), I'd pick the former without hesitation.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#22

Post by jqpabc123 »

squarefoot wrote: post #21
jqpabc123 wrote: post #9

Little known secret --- "fancy screens" are often used as marketing gimmicks but they can actually reduce the manufacturing cost of modern autos. In an environment where control systems are already digital/computerized for valid functional reasons, adding a display screen is more cost effective than analog instruments. I am old school and I prefer the analog style; however, it is fairly easy to simulate analog instru…

> I am old school and I prefer the analog style; however, it is fairly easy to simulate analog instrumentation on a digital display and some manufacturers are doing it very well. I'm old school as well and although I love the feel of a real indicator, screens can be effectively used as really good output devices if well designed, but touch screens? Just no: they're fragile, slow, and don't give any feedback; if I had…

Almost all cars that I have seen still have analog controls for driving *inputs*.

Digital/touch screen is mainly limited to entertainment, phone, setup, and GPS/mapping. A lot of touch screen functions are often intentionally made inactive while the vehicle is moving.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#23

Post by BluePen7 »

alex7734 wrote: post #8
EspressoGPT wrote: post #3

There are some lower-fidelity electric cars out there, such as the Dacia Spring or some of the very cheap Chinese cars. That being said, electric cars will always be more high tech than ICE cars because they have to. You will need a more or less fancy screen for finding charging stations and navigating them. You will need at least one app on your car or mobile for payments. You will need a mobile app connected with y…

Sorry but I don't understand your point. ICE cars also need gas stations, also need to pay for their fuel and also get cold when it's cold yet we've managed to do just fine for a long time without screens or even smartphones.

ICE cars fuelling speed isn't limited by the temperature of the gas tank when you arrive.

We could give power users a button to manually do that, but how far in advance you press it would have to depend on the heat you'll gain naturally on that particular route, the ambient temperature, and how you typically drive.

And if you get it wrong, you've wasted a bunch of your battery power or arrived colder than ideal. If you accidentally pressed it, or changed your mind, you've used a bunch of power for absolutely no reason.

Personally, I don't trust the average driver to check their tire pressure.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#24

Post by WorldMaker »

schwartzworld wrote: post #7
EspressoGPT wrote: post #3

There are some lower-fidelity electric cars out there, such as the Dacia Spring or some of the very cheap Chinese cars. That being said, electric cars will always be more high tech than ICE cars because they have to. You will need a more or less fancy screen for finding charging stations and navigating them. You will need at least one app on your car or mobile for payments. You will need a mobile app connected with y…

> You will need a more or less fancy screen for finding charging stations and navigating them I would imagine the venn diagram in the us of people with electric cars but no smartphone is pretty small. > You will need a mobile app connected with your car for pre-conditioning and bringing the battery to operating temperature. Now I warm up my car by going outside and turning the key. My wife's car has a remote starter.…

I heard that one of the Chinese car companies was taking that approach with some of their cheapest models: people already have phones, just provide a nice place on the dashboard to hang their phone, just provide an ordinary Bluetooth speaker as the sound system, and just provide a Bluetooth app to control some of the car's lesser used functionality like the most detailed parts of the climate system and what have you.

It's a fascinating approach. I don't know if it would take off beyond the smallest, cheapest types of cars, and I certainly don't know if we'll see those sorts of ultra-cheap cars in markets like the US, but it's still great to hear that some experimentation is going on knowing that everyone already has smart phones, modern cars are an extension of that (look at the importance of Apple CarPlay [1] and Android Auto), and there's a lot of room to experiment with an electric car (given how much of an electric car is a "software car").

[1] Fun semi-related footnote: on the highest end, as well, Porsche was getting some good press that they'd moved a bunch of their controls into an iOS app that supported CarPlay. Porsche seems to have perhaps realized that "CarPlay" is the real car OS most users care about.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#25

Post by WorldMaker »

BluePen7 wrote: post #23
alex7734 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I don't understand your point. ICE cars also need gas stations, also need to pay for their fuel and also get cold when it's cold yet we've managed to do just fine for a long time without screens or even smartphones.

ICE cars fuelling speed isn't limited by the temperature of the gas tank when you arrive. We could give power users a button to manually do that, but how far in advance you press it would have to depend on the heat you'll gain naturally on that particular route, the ambient temperature, and how you typically drive. And if you get it wrong, you've wasted a bunch of your battery power or arrived colder than ideal. If y…

> ICE cars fuelling speed isn't limited by the temperature of the gas tank when you arrive.

Gas refueling speed is absolutely affected by temperature and there are unsafe temperatures to refuel at. I've owned cars with vacuum sealed tanks that need a short wait and a mechanical unseal with safety checks before you refuel. I've seen gas pumps shut off because of outdoor temperature.

Just because we can do everything in software doesn't mean we don't have a history of mechanical solutions. Everything old is new again. Software is ultimately cheaper to update/fix and this is likely going to remain a driving force. There's also, yes, the trust factor in relying on automated software versus say mounting a battery temperature gauge on a dashboard and trying to train owners to check it or fidlde a bunch of switches around it before charging.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#26

Post by galenko »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #22
squarefoot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am old school and I prefer the analog style; however, it is fairly easy to simulate analog instrumentation on a digital display and some manufacturers are doing it very well. I'm old school as well and although I love the feel of a real indicator, screens can be effectively used as really good output devices if well designed, but touch screens? Just no: they're fragile, slow, and don't give any feedback; if I had…

Almost all cars that I have seen still have analog controls for driving *inputs*. Digital/touch screen is mainly limited to entertainment, phone, setup, and GPS/mapping. A lot of touch screen functions are often intentionally made inactive while the vehicle is moving.

BMW XM is a great example of how not to do this.

Want to turn on your fancy seat vents? 3 taps on the large screen in the middle.

Want to change some temps/fan speed? Swipe(not as nice as iOS) right, look through 10 identical looking icons and arrows, to find the right one.

Honestly, I thought people were exaggerating how bad it was until I got to experience it for myself. As a long term fan of the brand, it’s utterly disappointing.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#27

Post by BenjiWiebe »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #22
squarefoot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am old school and I prefer the analog style; however, it is fairly easy to simulate analog instrumentation on a digital display and some manufacturers are doing it very well. I'm old school as well and although I love the feel of a real indicator, screens can be effectively used as really good output devices if well designed, but touch screens? Just no: they're fragile, slow, and don't give any feedback; if I had…

Almost all cars that I have seen still have analog controls for driving *inputs*. Digital/touch screen is mainly limited to entertainment, phone, setup, and GPS/mapping. A lot of touch screen functions are often intentionally made inactive while the vehicle is moving.

That motion-deactivation "feature" is extremely frustrating to the passenger.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#28

Post by matthewmcg »

mwint wrote: post #18

I have a 2014 Nissan Leaf S (the lowest trim). It’s refreshingly simple, it has a screen but it’s only for the radio and it’s not a touch screen. Tactile controls for everything. It has an 80 mile range, which is fine for everything around the region, and my family has a gas car anyway. The 80 mile range keeps the prices pretty low, too. Highly recommended for a nearly free-to-use EV without the techno stuff. (We als…

I got an SL and regret that I can't now replace the fancier touchscreen with an aftermarket unit. I'd get CarPlay, but I'd lose the 360 camera view and EV-specific features (charge timer, range estimates, etc.)

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#29

Post by WorldMaker »

EspressoGPT wrote: post #14
alex7734 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I don't understand your point. ICE cars also need gas stations, also need to pay for their fuel and also get cold when it's cold yet we've managed to do just fine for a long time without screens or even smartphones.

> ICE cars also need gas stations, also need to pay for their fuel To be able to access a wide range of charging points, you will have to set up some accounts with multiple providers. There are more and more charging points that support debit cards because they have been made mandatory in several countries, but it is still recommended to register with at least one provider to get lower charging prices. Not all chargi…

There's no technical reason the charging networks couldn't just swipe cards like gas pumps and almost all of them decided that they needed (weird, terrible) custom apps and (overly complicated) sign up procedures.

Setting up the charging points on the current networks in my experience happens in phone apps and you couldn't use the car's screen if you wanted to anyway.

As everything moves to NACS in the US "plug-and-charge" should get a lot more common where you don't need to fiddle with a charging point's network's app any longer, because the car stores your payment info for you and transmits it when you plug in.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars?

#30

Post by schwartzworld »

EspressoGPT wrote: post #16
schwartzworld wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You will need a more or less fancy screen for finding charging stations and navigating them I would imagine the venn diagram in the us of people with electric cars but no smartphone is pretty small. > You will need a mobile app connected with your car for pre-conditioning and bringing the battery to operating temperature. Now I warm up my car by going outside and turning the key. My wife's car has a remote starter.…

> I would imagine the venn diagram in the us of people with electric cars but no smartphone is pretty small. So you do need proper route planning, charging point information and range prediction anyway. What would be the benefit of completely outsourcing this to a smartphone? Is having one additional device really going to make things easier and less brittle? Why shouldn't this be done by the car if it can be done by…

> What would be the benefit of completely outsourcing this to a smartphone?

I already have a smartphone, which I chose and replace when it stops getting security updates. Additionally I already essentially use my smartphone to find gas stations in unfamiliar areas. Why does the source of power necessitate IOT?

> You need the app on the smartphone. That's your remote starter.

I worked for a company that made an ebike that you used your phone to start. I hated it. If your phone is dead, so is your bike. I shouldn't need a phone to start my car.

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