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Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

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Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#91

Post by itake »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #89
itake wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don't understand the frustration. Why does OP care if they are "working" more than everyone else?

It's quite common for high performers to be annoyed by low performers. Often, they feel like they're having to cover for the low performers and are doing work they would normally not have to do if it wasn't for low performers.

Clearly OP is able to complete 41 points per week. If low performers also did 41 points per week, are you saying OP wouldn't do 41 points per week?

Assuming tasks are unlimited, to OP's perspective, the entire team should be doing 41 points. It isn't that he is doing 'their' work.

I think OP is upset that he delivers more work, but is still paid the same. Companies reward the extra work via promotions and bonuses.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#92

Post by tengwar2 »

icedchai wrote: post #63
fnimick wrote: post #4

How can you be so sure all your colleagues are useless? Are they doing any important but non-flashy work (planning, documentation, cleanup, etc) that isn't captured by the "story point" metric, which is a pretty bad tool to gauge productivity anyway?

Keep in mind all of that important but non-flashy work can also be used as a cover for not doing anything of consequence. Yes, sometimes it is important, but 70% of the time when I see someone has been "planning" they've done absolutely jack... (Recent example: How can a PM plan a software engineering project without talking to the people actually doing the work? Then they wonder why the "plan" makes no sense...)

As a PM, I find it best to put together a straw man project plan before I talk with people, then revise it progressively as I talk with people. Not always, but it's often a good idea, particularly if the project crosses multiple departments or companies. Sometimes I can't get everyone in the room at the same time. Sometimes (often) people will see their own team's area of work as being the main focus, while I have to coordinate with other groups, while trying to minimise the "hurry up and slow down". Sometimes there is a need to get people started on the bits we know about and accept that other bits will need changing. And sometimes you need to get the person responsible to estimate the length of the piece of string, and putting up a wrong estimate is a good way to get an answer.

I'm sure everyone is thinking "agile" now. Yes, I was in to that back when XP was the thing. But it only works for some sorts of project, typically where there is only a single company developing a project, and the customer is internal. If you have a big contract with specific deliverables, a contractual time line, multiple organisations, and perhaps large non-sw parts, you often find that you have to start planning even before the developers are engaged, then accept that some of your assumptions will be wrong.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#93

Post by Arch-TK »

eddieroger wrote: post #80
Arch-TK wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I need a job I can care about or else I struggle to do the work.

One can care about their job without caring what their peers are doing. Do your work, do it the best you can, and let management deal with everyone else (or not).

Sure, but the point made by the person I replied to was that you shouldn't care about your job. Also, it's normally quite difficult to do a job which requires collaboration when other people don't care about it. Likewise, it becomes difficult to not get burned out if you care about a job and your employer doesn't recognize and reward this.

I think overall my objection is to blanket advice I've heard during my life about how much care I should put into my work. I have never been able to be effective (and as a result have had issues with) doing meaningless work which I didn't care about. I have also had issues with continuing to care about work which people I work with didn't care about.

It's clear that a carefree approach works for some people but in this case it seems like better advice for OP would be to explain how to find jobs where people do care rather than trying to tell him (and other people in that situation) to just deal with it.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#94

Post by piva00 »

ojhughes wrote: post #85
Apreche wrote: post #18

Your mistake is caring. Are you being rewarded for working much harder than your colleagues? Are they being punished for working hardly at all? Why are you working hard for the benefit of the company's bottom line? It's a big company, why do you care about its bottom line? Your colleagues have the right attitude. They are doing the absolute bare minimum to collect a paycheck and go home. I suggest you do the same. Ca…

This is a terrible take, if you are passionate about your work then those 8 hours go a whole lot quicker. If you’re not passionate then I would question if the position is a good fit

I used to be passionate about coding at work, that gave me my first job, then my second, then some startups, big cos, and so on. At some point it doesn't really matter to try to keep yourself passionate about your job, you get enough experience, and you've seen how the maturity cycle of almost any tech company goes, in a general sense. At that point my passion for coding as a job disappeared, one just need to perform it well, professionally, and deliver what's expected of you for being paid to do it.

Is it nicer to work in a product/organisation you are passionate about? Of course, it doesn't mean this passion will last, or that it will be rewarded, or that it will even be healthy for you (one of the jobs I burned out from was exactly the one I was the most passionate about).

Building products follows the same patterns, even if the underlying technologies are different, or if you work on a product in a very different market/industry. It becomes all more of the same: store data somewhere, pull data from somewhere, transform some data to some other format, write some business logic, develop an interface, develop an application (web, desktop, mobile, embedded), deploy your systems at some server, monitor your systems (or implement telemetry if working embedded). You don't need to be passionate to work like that, you just need to be professional.

By doing that you also avoid the common pitfall of being exploited because of your passion.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#95

Post by ryandvm »

This is how big orgs ALWAYS work. You have to get used to it or go back to the startup trenches.

The startup pace can be grueling, it can have terrible hours, it can be unrewarding, but at least you're always working. At big orgs with plenty of funding you just sort of marvel at how so many people can accomplish so little. Everyone is always blocked by another team or some arcane bureaucratic process. It never ends and it never gets better.

The good news is you're probably well compensated and have complete job security. The bad news is you're at heightened risk for existential crisis.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#98

Post by breadbreadbread »

Everyone here has provided some good advice about looking for what you are missing. In any part of your life, if your conclusion is "everyone here sucks but me": you are probably missing something. Understand that your equation of "more story points faster = better" is a philosophical decision you are making, that your team does not agree with. Your team may not capture all of their work on a jira board or may scale their tasks differently than you. You may value fast completion of tasks, and they may value slow but intentional design and testing. No one's value can be completely captured "on paper".

Also just chill out about perceived relative effort! If deadlines slip, if bad code is being shipped, then you should be concerned about your coworkers effort. If your team is meeting deadlines, then it is managements responsibility to fill the work queue, if you want more work ask for it. Your job isn't to manage your coworkers who all have their own lives and relationships to the work. If you are worried that you are doing more work for less money, do less work or ask for a raise.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#99

Post by disambiguation »

Accept that you will never have a perfect job. There is much to be upset about. It could be pay, the interest in the work, the level of autonomy, the career growth prospects, the work-life balance, the people you work with, the people you work for, etc.

In the grand scheme of things, your complaint is minuscule. Trying to adjust the world to sate your ego is the folly of many men. Think carefully about what you actually have control over, and count your blessings that this is all you have to complain about.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with 0.1X programmer colleagues?

#100

Post by petterparker »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #77
fnimick wrote: post #4

How can you be so sure all your colleagues are useless? Are they doing any important but non-flashy work (planning, documentation, cleanup, etc) that isn't captured by the "story point" metric, which is a pretty bad tool to gauge productivity anyway?

Realistically shouldn't those tasks be given story points too if they're done separaterly from the team?

I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. At least when I was working for a contractor in the automotive industry, these kind of tasks where measured in story-points as well since story points roughly translate into paychecks.
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