The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app • Hacker News Board

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#91

Post by Sai_ » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 9:54 AM UTC

objektif wrote: post #24

Sai_ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ride share companies are surviving so it’s clear that some good enough solutions do exist. There’s a difference between the algorithms ride shares have to use and the heuristic based solution for 85.6k cities. The graph for ride shares is constantly changing as passengers request rides from random starting points to random destinations. This version of TSP is much harder to solve.

Sorry but how is ride share problem a TSP problem? Rides are assigned one at a time and I do not think they would take into account future rides while doing the assignment optimization.

True. I got derailed because the person I replied to and the replies to my comment used to TSP formulation to discuss this.

You’re right that the problem space is simply matching available drivers to riders.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#92

Post by Nextgrid » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:04 AM UTC

zonotope wrote: post #89

nologic01 wrote: post #67

"Digital" cooperatives using (optionally) open source platforms is an idea that should be much more explored imho. The concept applies to so many verticals involving small companies or individual operators (from taxis, to hotels, to restaurants, to real estate agents, local bookstores, cinemas, to game developers etc. etc.) The inability of large numbers of small entities to coordinate and cooperate in the digital er…

This sounds a lot like some of the rationale behind "web3"

Problem is that web3 tries to tie everything to a cryptocurrency token, not willing to accept the fact that as soon as something happens off-chain and in the real world, most/all advantages of using cryptocurrencies and blockchains go away.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#93

Post by mixmastamyk » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:06 AM UTC

throwaway892238 wrote: post #49

djbusby wrote: post #16

Oh man, a friend and I were thinking of building out a FOSS Uber clone for this exact purpose. Would allow a bunch of smaller regional Ubers to exist. Couldn't get funding and I don't have free time to write that much code. Hope these folks are able to succeed. FOSS is a great path for workers to seize the means of production.

> FOSS is a great path for workers to seize the means of production. It's... not. Open Source is not a business model, nor a collective organizing principle, bargaining process, etc. It's just source code a couple of people have commit access to. I'm all in favor of everybody sharing source code too, but let's not pretend it's magic. Building and sustaining any kind of organization takes work , and has nothing to do…

Doesn't need to be. It is merely one potential leg of the stool. The business model is driving people around for money.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#94

Post by asah » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:08 AM UTC

JamisonM wrote: post #44

asah wrote: post #28

"almost profitable" ??? "net loss of just $318,000 in 2022" "earned $5.9 million in revenue from 162,294 successful trips — and $5.2 million of that went directly to driver wages" Let's do the math: they earned $700K in net revenue and lost $318K - for a margin of -45.43%... sounds grim... But... if they can double the net revenue to $1.4M while only growing costs 25% to 1.3M then voila they're breakeven/ramen-profit…

I don't quite understand the logic here.. the 5.2MM wasn't fixed costs, that was costs of goods sold because they needed to provide the service to earn in income. So as far as I can tell they lost 318K, but they don't need to grow gross revenue by very much to close the profitability gap.

Exactly: if they double total revenue then NET revenue (after driver payouts) only grows to $1.4M

Sounds awesome but currently the net revenue was 700k which means they spent ~$1mm on other stuff besides driver payouts. Some of that will grow with the business (e.g. customer service, server hosting costs), some is fixed (e.g. you only need one CEO).

If they can grow the revenue without also growing expenses then they'll hit breakeven by ~doubling revenue, maybe more, maybe less.

Interestingly, i just checked their prices to JFK and they're about the same as Uber. So if they grow beyond breakeven, then they could undercut Uber's current prices...

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#95

Post by jaza » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:11 AM UTC

ramesh31 wrote: post #19

cortesoft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a different problem, because the TSP is about reaching every point in the shortest distance, but in this case you can't just hit every point in any order you want. Each rider is going to want a ride at different times, and each rider is going to make their request at different times, and multiple drivers are going to be available at different times. You are optimizing for least amount of time riders have to w…

>You are optimizing for least amount of time riders have to wait, not just for shortest distance driven. Point being though that it's fundamentally a deterministic combinatorial problem. And they have the added benefit in this case of only worrying about prescheduled trips that need to be calculated the day before. It's not trivial, but it's an algorithmic problem that has no need for inductive output.

What is this "deterministic combinatorial problem" and "no need for inductive output" gibberish of which you speak?

AI! AI! AI!

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#96

Post by Nextgrid » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:14 AM UTC

AlotOfReading wrote: post #18

Scheduled rides are a neat strategy, but they're tough for consumers to use effectively. For one thing, if you're attempting to schedule a last mile ride after you get off the subway, your arrival at the pickup point could be subject to minor delays. But on the network side, a few minutes on each ride impacts efficiency in a major way. Personally, my biggest (non ethical) issue with Uber/Lyft et al. is that they're u…

> is that they're unreliable

The platforms care little about individual customers (as opposed to drivers, which are fewer and have higher onboarding costs) so they are reluctant to set up the right incentives to force drivers to be reliable.

A simple solution (in most gig economy markets - not just ridesharing) is that any accepted task costs you a deposit which gets returned on completion. This instantly makes it unprofitable to offer sub-par service or cancel, and provides stability to both customers and the system in general as any accepted task is more likely to be delivered (and tasks which are unprofitable to accept will not get accepted, so the surge pricing mechanism can do its job and raise prices until acceptance rates go up).

The problem is that this will only happen if there is either a legally-enforceable service-level-agreement (such as compensating passengers for unreliability or missed arrival times) or strong competition, which is not currently the case. Most gig economy markets are dominated by a handful of equally-mediocre players who have no incentive to out-compete each other.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#97

Post by runeks » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:44 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #20

This is an interesting startup filling a need, but I don't think it is really competing with Uber and Lyft, because they are only doing prescheduled rides. The killer feature for Uber/Lyft is being able to get a ride at any time on demand in a matter of minutes. It doesn't seem like this will be able to get there. I have wondered if a pure market making app would work... let drivers and riders place bids... a driver…

> I have wondered if a pure market making app would work... let drivers and riders place bids... a driver can lower their bid to get hired faster and a rider can increase their bid to get picked up faster. The app would just take a fixed cut.

This is a good idea. But it's important to note that price is not the only relevant parameter here (as opposed to e.g. buying company shares, where two shares are exactly the same)

Other parameters:

1. Waiting time — how long is the driver and the passagner willing to wait?

2. Driver rating — the there a minimum rating a driver must have (and if passengers are rated, too, then vice versa)?

So there's the combination of, at least, these three parameters, which gets complicated. For example: as a passenger, would you rather ride with a 4.5 star rated driver with a 5 minute waiting time for $30; or a 4.0 star rated driver with a 2 minute waiting time for $26?

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#98

Post by master-lincoln » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:51 AM UTC

mft_ wrote: post #81

Ignoring the details of this particular initiative, from a high-level view this is wonderful. Similarly to how Tesla's future failure or success is irrelevant as they've already succeeded in the most important task of proving that EVs can work and thus driving the industry to produce them en masse, Uber and Lyft have driven a revolution. They've shown that the old model for running a taxi service was horrendously out…

Uber and Lyft seem like a step back: less safety for drivers and passengers as cars are not company owned and inspected and there are no checks on drivers that a taxi company would do. Also the gig economy is overall probably a negative for society as working people do not have the safety of employment along with benefits. What risk or investment does e.g. Uber have that justifies taking a 20% cut? From a consumers perspective there might be more choices and cheaper options, but that doesn't outweigh the issues it brings with it I think.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#99

Post by kdmccormick » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:52 AM UTC

throwaway892238 wrote: post #49

djbusby wrote: post #16

Oh man, a friend and I were thinking of building out a FOSS Uber clone for this exact purpose. Would allow a bunch of smaller regional Ubers to exist. Couldn't get funding and I don't have free time to write that much code. Hope these folks are able to succeed. FOSS is a great path for workers to seize the means of production.

> FOSS is a great path for workers to seize the means of production. It's... not. Open Source is not a business model, nor a collective organizing principle, bargaining process, etc. It's just source code a couple of people have commit access to. I'm all in favor of everybody sharing source code too, but let's not pretend it's magic. Building and sustaining any kind of organization takes work , and has nothing to do…

I'd like you to imagine a world where GNU and Linux never took off, where we'd probably all be paying for Windows Server licenses in order to run websites. One where you need to pay to download a compiler, and all you get is the binary.

That's hard to imagine, given the freedoms we enjoy now. I can download a world-class OS for free and distribute changes to it without any hinderance other than my own skill barriers. Same for DVCSes, video players, browsers, modelling software, desktop environments, compilers, and so on... That was not the case in the early 90s.

FOSS wasn't a complete nor a permanent revolution, but revolutions rarely are. Point is, it changed the world, it changed business, it changed developers' day to day experience, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. We still rely on corporations to make software, but they are now socially pressured and incentivized to release the source of a large portion of what they make for free. Maybe we haven't seized the means, but we are right there with the big guys at the means, sharing power in a (relatively) new and exciting way.

Re: The Drivers Cooperative: New York’s driver-owned ride-hailing app

#100

Post by kykeonaut » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 11:45 AM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #92

zonotope wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds a lot like some of the rationale behind "web3"

Problem is that web3 tries to tie everything to a cryptocurrency token, not willing to accept the fact that as soon as something happens off-chain and in the real world, most/all advantages of using cryptocurrencies and blockchains go away.

It really is a shame that all blockchains (AFAIK) are tied to cryptocurrency as reward for participating in their consensus mechanism when it is not necessary the only way to do things.

In fact, I believe blockchain will never be decentralized as long as there is a means of accumulation of power over the blockchain, in many cases the accumulation of PoW computing power, or in PoS the accumulation of the cryptocurrency itself.

I also believe (without any basis other than the spirit of the correspondence from Satoshi) that Satoshi released Bitcoin in 2008 as a proof of concept, not as a project meant to be adopted by every institution. Bitcoin was created to address the Byzantine Generals problem, and AFAIK it was the first to truly do so. It was not created to be the blueprint to every other blockchain ever.