Live data from Hacker News

The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

twitter.com

321–330 of 767 posts

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#321
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it'll never be so obvious that NATO can declare it as an attack you've seen the playbook in ukraine twice now there will be an russian speaking minority in estonia/lithuania/... that will that rebel against anti russian oppression, guerilla warfare against the authorities, then they'll hold an rigged referendum, then a decade later the Russian government will formally annex what they've effectively controlled for yea…

[flagged]

they're not oppressed, that's the point

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#322

Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…

>The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience.

This is true, but understated in a crucial manner. By global standards, the greatest enduring strength of the US economy has been its ability to recover from downturns. More than anything else, that has pulled it ahead of competitors time and time again. When the early '80s financial crisis hit Japan with a lost decade, Volcker (PBUH) pulled the US out of the doldrums and back into a growth phase within three years. When the Asian financial crisis hit at the same time as the dotcom bust, the US recovered more efficiently than the erstwhile "Asian tigers". When the 2007 financial crisis went worldwide, aggressive measures by the Fed and a willingness to risk inflation restored growth faster than in Europe. When COVID hit, economies around the world dived, but even with political divisions running at their highest since 1876, the US again restored growth more quickly than almost anywhere else — now growing at competitive rates with China.

There are a variety of theories about this, but one iniquitous postulate I've heard is that the US makes it a lot easier for companies to do layoffs — not a happy proposition for those directly affected, but what could be worse for an economy than having thousands of people working on something that just isn't working? Many worker protections — for health, safety and family — have become more popular with economists recently, but when the subject of being able to fire people comes up, there is still a sort of grim understanding transmitted in whispers: paying someone who isn't making progress makes us all worse off in the long run.

Of course we can also trace the roots of some profound social malaise — including the collapse of whole cities — to the cutthroat nature of employment in America; there is no free lunch.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#323
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it would imply the standard of living is increasing. In USA, GDP includes the explosion of numbers of hospital admin staffers, energy prices doubled, and production of munitions which are given to Europe. That GDP does not increase my quality of life.

"That GDP does not increase my quality of life. " I agree. As I said in my first post: "prices of goods [eg. healthcare] are inflated in the US compared to similar goods in the EU". So concretely, if healthcare prices increase in the US, but remain constant in the EU, this would increase the PPP GDP of the EU. What I meant to write is: if the PPP GDP increases in the EU faster than in the US , with all else being equ…

GDP PPP in the US is identical to the nominal GDP in the US since the purchasing currency in the US is the US dollar.

> What I meant to write is: if the PPP GDP increases in the EU faster than in the US, with all else being equal (eg. stable population) it would imply the standard of living is increasing faster in the EU than in the US.

No it doesn’t mean anything of the sort in fact high nominal GDP to GDP PPP ratio usually indicates a low standard of living and a developing economy the Eurozone is an anomaly in this regard mainly due to its developed infrastructure and social institutions.

And don’t forget that your GDP PPP can be twice that another county whilst your median income is can be 10 times lower.

Median income per capita adjusted for PPP would be a better albeit an imperfect measurement of it since the standard of living is dependent on so many other things.

In which case there are only 4 countries which have higher median income PPP than the US, UAE, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Norway.

AIC/household final consumption expenditure is another good indicator for standard of living and wealth in which case the US is #1.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. So can GDP. > PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either. Why isn't it a good measure? Why is it worse than pure GDP? > The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled. The GDP of the US is twice of that of the EU. How does paying $20…

> So can GDP. No, not really as exchange rate fluctuations are avoided using constant international dollar benchmarks. > Why isn't it a good measure? Why is it worse than pure GDP? This been explained multiple times in this thread already including a link to the OECD FAQ on GDP PPP. Nominal GDP isn’t a measure of individual wealth either, it is however a very good indicator of national economic growth. >The GDP of th…

> No, not really as exchange rate fluctuations are avoided using constant international dollar benchmarks.

There are ways for GDP to increase while economy contracts. As the simplest example, an informal sector may become formalized and be partially reduced in the process due to new bureaucratic obstacles.

> This been explained multiple times in this thread already including a link to the OECD FAQ on GDP PPP.

I don't see OECD FAQ claiming anything close to what you imply. It actually claims that "The major use of *PPPs is as a first step in making inter-country comparisons* in real terms of gross domestic product (GDP) and its component expenditures."

> Nominal GDP isn’t a measure of individual wealth either, it is however a very good indicator of national economic growth.

A nitpick: if we talk about growth, we should talk about the change in GDP. Anyway, how is the change in nominal GDP any better than the change in GDP PPP?

> GDP PPP doesn’t include housing costs, at least not directly it includes a component which is called imbued rent which tends to grossly underestimate the actual cost of housing in a given country.

The rent is included directly. Imputed rent is fictitious income that exists to account for housing services homeowners provide to themselves to make comparisons easier between situations where the rate of homeownership is different. If it grossly underestimates the actual cost of housing, it simply means it is calculated incorrectly. As a sidenote, for lots of other services such adjustments are not made (eg eating out vs cooking at home, paying a housekeeper vs cleaning yourself).

> Housing in the EU is generally more expensive than in the US both to rent and to buy nearly every country has a massive housing shortage and inflated prices.

I don't think any EU city can compare to the US juggernauts such as NY and SF in terms of housing shortage and inflated prices.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one uses PPP for measuring growth, GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either. The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled.

I think Americans would disagree with the implication that the US has done particularly well over the last 15 years, even though going by nominal dollars that seems to be the case.

That’s true, and it’s the point.

The reality is that there American system sucks by some metrics, and yet by others which are real and not BS, the US economy crushes.

In the end human flourishing, and life satisfaction are more important than GDP, but at the same time GDP is real and it does matter.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite a shrinking economy. If we’re measuring economy size we’re not measuring purchasing power. I cant tell if you recognize this and just think we shouldn’t care about economy size or if you are actually conflating PPP with economy size. Mainly because you keep presenting it as a rebuttal to claims about economy size.

Size is denominated in terms of some measure. You don’t eat dollars, and you can’t build a house out of one. GDP has doubled, but so have US prices. Does that mean the economy is actually stronger? Using PPP simply chooses to denominate GDP in terms of things other that fiat currency.

PPP is usually meant to compare economies and control for differences in cost of living, not comparing time periods. Inflation is when you compare the same economy in two time periods.

Furthermore, economic growth is measured in "real" dollars, aka, excludig inflation. If US prices doubled as you say, then their economy is therefore now four times as large in the new, inflated dollars.

None of this has anything to do with fiat currency. The same would be true if you measured in kg's of gold, but you'd have to account for the gold-cost of living ratio instead of fiat dollar inflation.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#327
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of your entry-level jobs were supposed to be for highschool and college kids working part time. This is some soft language hiding some bad assumptions. "supposed to be" - what does this mean? because it's a lot more interesting...low skilled jobs, are probably what we're going to be talking about. However, it's not the 1950s anymore. eg Staffing a movie theater is not a part-time job (which you would know if y…

> If you have a fulltime job, the minimum wage is intended to allow you to survive This is the issue - the idea that minimum wage is supposed to be "livable" is a modern notion. Unskilled labor probably shouldn't be livable. If someone can be trained to replace you in a few minutes (i.e. unskilled labor), then the truth is your labor is not worth a lot. We need more people moving up into skilled labor. It's really ha…

> the idea that minimum wage is supposed to be "livable" is a modern notion.

A notion that dates back centuries and one specifically enshrined in law in Australia, a G20 country, since 1902 (ish).

I dare say other G20 countries also support this notion (aside from any antiquated holdouts still clinging to non SI units).

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#328
post #96

Note this chart shows nominal dollars, not PPP-adjusted. The EU has certainly kept up with the US when looking at PPP GDP from 2008 to 2022: US grew from $14.8T to $25.5T EU grew from $14.3T to $24.3T What that means is that the prices of goods are inflated in the US compared to similar goods in the EU. That's all. Want something interesting? Look at China who grew from $10.0T to $30.3T over the same period (!) Sourc…

[flagged]

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#329
post #96

Note this chart shows nominal dollars, not PPP-adjusted. The EU has certainly kept up with the US when looking at PPP GDP from 2008 to 2022: US grew from $14.8T to $25.5T EU grew from $14.3T to $24.3T What that means is that the prices of goods are inflated in the US compared to similar goods in the EU. That's all. Want something interesting? Look at China who grew from $10.0T to $30.3T over the same period (!) Sourc…

[flagged]

Wait until you hear about who invented HDI.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#330
post #95
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A rising tide obviously raises all ships, including the nation's poorest. To throw a wrench in that tired metaphor: a rising tide may raise all ships, but a fat lot of good that does to the poor, if it's only the well-of that can afford to buy a boat.

You're missing the point. Even the poor do better when there's more jobs available, more job mobility, more housing, more stores, etc. All things that are created by wealthy companies and individuals. Everyone, including our poorest, benefit from a growing economy. We just have to examine our average poverty-level person, and compare them to poverty-level persons of other nations to understand this point.

Sure, feel free to compare American poverty-level people to poverty-level people in countries with stronger safety nets.
Post reply on HN