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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#291
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In theory since 2008 real wages have been increasing... in practice, housing and other costs like childcare have increased astronomically during that period negating any real gains. That's categorically not true. Adjusting for inflation, wages today are up 6.8% compared to 2008. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

Do you understand that you've just linked the numbers that are being criticised without addressing the criticisms?

What piece of the CPI adjustment formula are you arguing is so flawed that is negates any "real" gains of wages? And why do you believe the markets haven't caught on and started following a better metric?

To bring things back a bit, the argument was that

> housing and other costs like childcare have increased astronomically during that period negating any real gains

Yet, gruez is downvoted while citing CPI-adjusted wage growth showing the contrary. CPI, for everyone's information, includes rental and housing costs in its indexing, as well as child care and many other services.

Of course, it's just one (financially significant) formula, but it was a good faith rebuttal and the only comment in this thread citing anything close to objective evidence.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#292

And yet with all that money you can’t buy European quality of life in the USA

Life is fine in Europe and very nice in many ways but if you have any type of skill/smarts/ambition then the USA is really better to many people.

My evidence of this assertion is that millions more EU citizens emigrate to the USA than the other way. If Europe was that great then skilled Americans would be lining up to go. But they aren’t and in fact skilled people from all over the planet cone to the USA in droves.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#293
post #96

Note this chart shows nominal dollars, not PPP-adjusted. The EU has certainly kept up with the US when looking at PPP GDP from 2008 to 2022: US grew from $14.8T to $25.5T EU grew from $14.3T to $24.3T What that means is that the prices of goods are inflated in the US compared to similar goods in the EU. That's all. Want something interesting? Look at China who grew from $10.0T to $30.3T over the same period (!) Sourc…

No one uses PPP for measuring growth, GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either. The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled.

> GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts.

So can GDP.

> PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either.

Why isn't it a good measure? Why is it worse than pure GDP?

> The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled.

The GDP of the US is twice of that of the EU. How does paying $2000 for a 50 sq. feet box makes your economy bigger?

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#294
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb. I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unles…

> I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one. To my understanding, infant mortality has less to do with quality of care, and a lot more to do with environmental and genetic factors. The biggest causes of infant mortality in the US are congenital defects and complications du…

    To my understanding, infant mortality has less to do with quality of care, and a lot more to do with environmental and genetic factors. The biggest causes of infant mortality in the US are congenital defects and complications due to premature birth.
This statement is a commonly held sentiment that can be trivially shown to be invalid.

Consider California, the state has seen a decline in maternal mortality by 65% while the rest of the US, especially states like Alabama have seen consistent increases of 700%+ in the same time period,

    CMQCC was founded in 2006 at Stanford University School of Medicine together with the State of California in response to rising maternal mortality and morbidity rates. Since CMQCC’s inception, California has seen maternal mortality decline by 65 percent between 2006 to 2016, while the national maternal mortality rate continued to rise.
https://www.cmqcc.org/who-we-are

Alabama's maternal mortality rate in 2012 was 6.9 per 100,000, 49.1 per 100,000 in 2016, and is now likely excess of that from 2023 onwards. The state suffers from what's now being called a, Maternity Care Desert, https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/local/alabam...

https://www.alreporter.com/2020/11/22/nearly-70-percent-of-a...

Actions matter. Even if there's a genetic factor that leads to a predisposition to an event, how that event is handled and, indeed, how prevention is addressed — a genetic predisposition is a probability that something will occur not a certainty — makes all the difference.

Just because someone was genetically predisposed to get a heart attack doesn't mean that their death from a heart attack was due to their "genetics."

Suppose the ambulance took 3 hours to arrive, only to deliver poorly trained paramedics that failed to administer care leading to the patient's death on a gurney en route to the hospital. In that case, the patient hasn't died due to genetics. They've been killed because of catastrophic, systemic failure. A systematic failure to address their elevated risk, a failure to prevent or mitigate said risk, and then a catastrophic failure in handling the event precipitated from this unmitigated risk.

    There seem to be enough confounding factors that I'd question comparing infant mortality rates across borders to begin with.
These rates have been successfully reduced across the world and have gone up in certain parts of the US while declining in others. The fact that these rates are so sensitive to infrastructure, practises and care leads to an entirely different conclusion than the one implied here.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#295
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb. I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unles…

> I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one. To my understanding, infant mortality has less to do with quality of care, and a lot more to do with environmental and genetic factors. The biggest causes of infant mortality in the US are congenital defects and complications du…

> congenital defects and complications due to premature birth

Those sound like issues which could be avoided with better healthcare, no? Stuff like that can often be trivially caught with proper screening.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#296
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a poor metric. The USA offers you more potential. It’s up to you. The USA also has a higher percentage of young people and more of them are dying from drugs. That skews a metric line that. Do it by cohort and it’s different.

What, specifically, do you mean by "The USA offers you more potential?"

More opportunity. More capacity to improve your lot in life. More luxury. More space. It goes on.

There’s a reason millions more people from the EU live in the USA than the other way. Or why there’s a line 100s of millions long to come to the USA.

Nowhere is perfect but as a world traveler I’d say the USA is pretty great. What I have found most interesting over the last 20 years is that the conversation has moved from USA/EU to USA/Asia. Europe has become lodged somewhere between that and Africa/South America but Euros haven’t noticed it yet. Business has.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#297
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't PPP per capita a better measure of quality of life than nominal GDP per capita? I care about what I can buy. Obviously, nominal GDP per capita matters for international vacations.

No, GDP PPP doesn’t measure what you can buy it measure how much things cost. It doesn’t know how much money you have, it doesn’t measure the purchasing power of individuals. It also is based on a basket of 3000 fungible goods and services without accounting for value of quality or outcomes; as explained already in this thread. It doesn’t take into account median income, income and wealth inequality, unemployment rat…

>It doesn’t know how much money you have, it doesn’t measure the purchasing power of individuals.

No per-capita metric does this. You have to use things like the median wage to capture the purchasing power of individuals. For example, Equatorial Guinea's GDP/c is among the highest in Africa, but due to insanely high inequality and oppression, people are better off in Senegal or Rwanda. Guyana, which recently discovered large oil reserves, is a less extreme example of the same thing.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#298
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb. I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unles…

I get that this is true in principle, but the fact is that Americans have significantly more children per-capita than Germans, and this is at least in part driven by economic limitations (including housing).

A significant part of it is driven by religious practices promoting large families, restrictions on contraceptives and abortions, and a lack of proper sex education leading to unintended pregnancies.

Economic limitations have never stopped people from having kids and it is often the poorer people who have more kids.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#299
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one uses PPP for measuring growth, GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either. The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled.

Isn't PPP per capita a better measure of quality of life than nominal GDP per capita? I care about what I can buy. Obviously, nominal GDP per capita matters for international vacations.

Neither measure what you can buy.

GDP isn't distributed evenly. PPP doesn't effect the distribution. It's just an adjustment.

An oil state like Russia has a decent GDP, but the distribution is horrendous. It doesn't matter if you look at GDP or GDP PPP. Neither gives you a great picture "what you can buy" unless you're in the top 1%.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that now. I bet you are going to be dancing by a different tune at 70.

Think you're intentionally misreading what I'm saying, thanks for that

Am I? I think not.

You are saying that you would rather live a shorter time in good health than a longer time being unhealthy at the end.

I am saying that the day will come when you start to deteriorate, get aches, getting slower, maybe even critically ill. During all that you will most likely still not want to die.

People suffer in every age group most of them don't want to die. Why do you think you would?

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