A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves • Hacker News Board

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#531

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 1:32 AM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #197

idiotsecant wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did similar, except wired into the ignition circuit and with the control being a little cheap ebay RFID thing with the sensor on the underside of the dash. I kept a little RFID tag on my keys, chuck my keys up onto the dash when i'm ready to go and the truck is started with a pushbutton. I also put a cheater switch in the glove box in case i forgot my RFID tags. In my case it was motivated more by maintenance heada…

I guess this works if you don’t have immobilizers. In Canada they’re mandated, so the ECU is expecting some kind of digital signal from the key before turning on (but sometimes you can just shuck the rf chip inside they key and glue it in the right spot, or uncode it from the écu).

Welcome to the south.

No snow means no salt which means no rust.

Not unusual around here to see farm trucks from the 80s or earlier (sometimes MUCH earlier) still kicking around.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#532

Post by toss1 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 1:37 AM UTC

Simpler:

Use a manual transmission. I had a car that in the previous century (Saab 900Turbo 5spd) was visiting in NYC and found it broken into, scratches around the ignition (also in a weird place in the center floor), but not stolen; clearly they had no clue about operating the gears.

These days I read multiple articles about would-be thieves foiled by manual trans.

It is merely security by obscurity, but it is nevertheless effective.

Nobody that doesn't already know how to drive a manual thans is going to figure it out in the 60 second window, and very few people already know.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#533

Post by TylerE » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 1:38 AM UTC

boobsbr wrote: post #337

oxfordmale wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

Why not put a button on the fob, like old car alarms had? Car won't start unless button is pressed on the fob, enabling the embedded radio.

Not great from an accessibility standpoint. For anyone with any sort of arthritis/rsi type issues, doing two things with the same hand at the same time is anywhere between tricky and impossible.

Consider how annoying the modern cigarette lighter is for a non-smoker.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#534

Post by ke88y » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 1:40 AM UTC

TRiG_Ireland wrote: post #505

ke88y wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's common in denser cities, primarily with two applications: 1. at parking garages so that cars can be double- or triple-parked. This is by far the most common use case for valets today. At these lots, you actually do have to pay more (or arrive early) for a spot that doesn't require valet parking. 2. at high-end restaurants or other similar venues where there is no immediately nearby parking and limited or no stre…

Simplest way to avoid using a valet service is probably to not turn up in a car.

Well, yeah, I did say I don't envy the midtown car owner :)

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#535

Post by ehnto » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 1:42 AM UTC

bscphil wrote: post #391

IanCal wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is two factor auth but when the "thing you own" is the standard case. I don't get why it's not a keypad and relay though. Sounds like a complex solution to a fairly simple problem. I might be missing something though. Edit - ah it's intended to work with many other options like controlling indicators or wipers or something - so you choose some pattern that is your password.

> it's intended to work with many other options like controlling indicators or wipers I think you're asking exactly the right question though - how is all this not just a more complex, less secure, shittier version of a keypad that you enter a 4-6 digit code on?

It is also not any better than any other immobiliser. Unless it's on the CANBUS talking securely to the ECU, thieves will likely just bypass the module physically if they have the time.

This coupled with a CANBUS integration with the ECU to prevent it from starting would be pretty good though, since no one can wirelessly collect the signals to spoof the code.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#536

Post by randombits0 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

Not surprising. Not simple.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#537

Post by ehnto » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

boobsbr wrote: post #341

janalsncm wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. In theory, investors can behave as rational actors. In practice, you get all sorts of chasing the Next Big Thing because there’s too much money flowing around to too little fundamental research. So I’m ok if we spend $1.2M on research. That’s like 5 developers for one year who would otherwise be allocated by the invisible hand into effectively useless endeavors like high frequency trading or ad tech. Cut to the…

> So I’m ok if we spend $1.2M on research. I'm not. Where do I opt out of funding government grants? At least I can decide not invest in something if I don't want to risk losing money.

You didn't lose any money. Nor did the country, the money didn't vanish, it ended up in employees pockets. Given they are probably low paid researchers, it'll all be back in the engine of capitalism by the end of the month. Some of it will even be back in the gov's coffers, where you can pretend it's doing something you prefer, like barely covering maintenance of a single road for a year.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#538

Post by fomine3 » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 2:02 AM UTC

Eisenstein wrote: post #125

henryfjordan wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could get that robot-cooks-as-you-drive idea right, even without the self-driving bit, you can out-compete Dominos by saving half the trips (back to store from delivery address). The technology was immature but the fundamentals were there, and they'd save a not-insignificant amount of gas.

> they'd save a not-insignificant amount of gas I wonder the efficiencies of cooking in a vehicle as opposed to a fixed pizza oven.

Internal Cooking Engine.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#539

Post by ddingus » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 2:08 AM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #102

postmortembees wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raking house locks is a) not difficult and b) not expensive. You don't need to be a professional to do that. But also, bricks through windows are equally not difficult and not expensive, though they do leave a bit more evidence. When my neighbors have been burgled, this is the preferred method of entry I've seen.

"But also, bricks through windows are equally not difficult and not expensive, though they do leave a bit more evidence" But that would be loud. You don't want attention when breaking in. (Unless you are a fucked up junkie not caring about anything anymore) But yes, my parents for example are paranoid about always locking the front door 2 times(and get angry if I don't do it when I visit), but have a glass door in th…

Wait until an awful rainy night, then rock through window changes! Dog hears it and begins to bark per usual practice.

Dog owner gets up, yells at dog to shut up... because rain!

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#540

Post by hunson_abadeer » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 2:18 AM UTC

function_seven wrote: post #368

hunson_abadeer wrote: post #335

There's a lot of people remarking about this not being novel or the grant being too high, but I'd make two other critiques. First, what happens if the electrical characteristics of your vehicle change in some way? New vs old battery? Busted headlight? Phone plugged into an outlet? Diesel air intake heater grid kicking in on a cold day? What if you need to jumpstart your vehicle? It just seems so finicky in the real w…

This is a two part system. There's the relay under the hood, and a keypad plugged into the cigarette lighter port. When you put the correct code in, the device will induce the voltage fluctuations that tell the under-hood relay to close. I think the whole "flip on wipers, flash high-beams twice, turn on map light" thing is a fallback for when you don't have the keypad or don't want it to always be plugged in. If the…

Right, but that voltage modulation scheme can be distorted by the changing electrical characteristics of your car. Again, imagine a diesel heater kicking in, or windshield wipers, or some other variable load (phone charging)... you can have a clever fault-tolerant modulation scheme, but probably not if you want to also support "blink headlights" as a backup input method?

Beyond that, I don't see the "simplicity" argument for analog. You're already messing with the vehicle's wiring. CAN bus is easily accessible from the passenger compartment. Or, running an extra data wire takes 10 minutes. Short-range RF can be easily secured in this application too.

Plus, on many newer cars, USB charging ports are displacing 12 V outlets, so it's not even all that future-proof.

It's not that I'm desperate to dislike this design, but I'm struggling to see the qualitative improvement over a billion aftermarket designs that most people just kinda don't use...