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A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

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Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#521

Post by nerdbert »

EGreg wrote: post #403
seabird wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you put the locks on, they would never be used. If you need it you need it right now, and it's usually life or death. If somebody is trying to steal it, you shoot them. The last thing you want to be doing in a gunfight is fucking with a lock.

This is a strawman All you have to do is have every soldier who is authorized to use your equipment unlock the vehicle through an affirmative phrase — and the vehicle can check their voice for instance, or other biometrics like their fingerprint. Or each of them can wear a beacon or smartphone which does that. Cars today open with you just getting into the car. This is easy stuff man

Does not sound like you have ever been anywhere near a combat situation.

You don't know who is going to need to be able to drive something at the drop of a hat. And the more fiddly and complicated something gets, the more likely it is to fail because of either technological or UX/human reasons in stressful situations. This would cost lives.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#522

Post by doubled112 »

chiph wrote: post #472
gadders wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK in WW2 for a period of time everyone had to disable their vehicles when unattended by removing the rotor arm https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/47622/

A local Chevy dealer once got a Silverado pickup with the 454 (7.5 liters) V8 in it. As an anti-theft measure, they disconnected four of the spark plug wires when they parked it on the lot. It got stolen anyway - it turns out that a 454 will still run on half it's cylinders.

Now many Chevy V8s do this by design while you run down the highway.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#523

Post by mixedCase »

oxfordmale wrote: post #103
gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

Don't modern keyless fobs use something akin to TOTPs? A well kept clock can easily prevent relay attacks.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#524

Post by jancsika »

callalex wrote: post #514
EGreg wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a strawman All you have to do is have every soldier who is authorized to use your equipment unlock the vehicle through an affirmative phrase — and the vehicle can check their voice for instance, or other biometrics like their fingerprint. Or each of them can wear a beacon or smartphone which does that. Cars today open with you just getting into the car. This is easy stuff man

“This is easy stuff man” Let’s assume for the sake of argument that electronics are perfect, and never fail for any reason (including but not limited to battery drain, battery overcharging, battery age, heat, cold, sudden change between heat and cold, vibration, shock, moisture, dryness, flooding, corrosion, UV degradation, rodent infiltration, wind, wind containing abrasives such as sand and dirt, chemical exposure,…

> You can find an overview of those challenges at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_management

Not a big deal when physical security is provided at the broader level. For example, for any failed access attempt just fall back to TOFU.

(Sorry, I'm just 85% sure the top-level ancestor is trolling and I wanted to help by taking it one level deeper. :)

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#525

Post by aodonnell2536 »

jeremy_wiebe wrote: post #407
dahwolf wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was younger here in the Netherlands a lot of us had tweaked motorcycles/scooters that would go much faster than the allowed cap of 50km/h. Many had a "cop switch". Cops suspecting you messed with the engine would put the scooter on a test belt to measure its maximum speed. The cop switch would instantly cap it to the allowed speed. Mine was hidden in the left mirror, a minor adjustment would activate it.

Sounds like a VW: behaves differently under test.

Schrödinger’s Volkswagen

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#526

Post by zoratu »

In the late 70s my father had a Simca with part of the ignition key lodged in the ignition lock cylinder. Getting the replacement key from France was going to take ages, so he rigged it up so that you had to flip a toggle switch he'd installed on the dashboard and honk the horn in order for it to start. It was the opposite of a kill switch.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#527

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

commandar wrote: post #88
pavel_lishin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't there a rash of thefts of Kia and Hyundai cars recently?

That was because the base model of those vehicles didn't have an immobilizer like every other car on the market as a cost cutting measure. They also have ignition switches that are relatively trivial to bypass. It's possible that some other manufacturer may try it again in the future, but the hit to Hyundai/Kia's reputation has been substantial.

> ignition switches that are relatively trivial to bypass.

The switches themselves aren't bypassed. Their design for the lock cylinder is so crappy that it can be snapped off, exposing the peg that actuates the switch.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#528

Post by blincoln »

oxfordmale wrote: post #103
gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

I don't think any of your typical car thieves are actually picking locks. For a traditional mechanical key ignition, generally they're going to break into the steering column and just hotwire the right connections together, or possibly jam a strong tool in the keyway and forcibly twist the cylinder depending on the design of the lock. Obviously that won't spoof a signal from a fob or other electronic signal, but it's why having a traditional mechanical lock on the ignition isn't really worthwhile. If the electronic communication is secure, a mechanical lock doesn't add value.

Maybe it's different for very high-end vehicle thieves, though.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#529

Post by thsksbd »

Im pretty sure 90s Hertz rentals in Italy had something like this. It was terrible, unreliable and once left us stranded.

Whats not clear to me is if this blocks the starter (high current) or is a bit smarter by blocking a lower current component (like injector pump, or the ignition).

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#530

Post by TylerE »

technothrasher wrote: post #173
Ancapistani wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super common in simple vehicles used to "run into town" in rural areas. We call them "kill switches". My previous vehicle was a '97 Jeep Wrangler. There were two kill switches installed when I bought it: one down by the driver's seatbelt latch for the fuel pump, and one reachable by inserting your finger into the opening for the 4wd shifter the disabled the starter. Neither was easily visible.

Yup, I put an ignition kill switch in my old Triumph Spitfire behind the dashboard when I was living in a not so great part of town. Just had to reach my hand up behind and flick it. I didn't hide it too hard, figuring anybody that tried to drive away in my Triumph and couldn't get it to start would figure it was just being a typical Triumph.

Realistically, these days driving a stick might as well be a kill switch.
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