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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#221

Post by OGWhales »

Alupis wrote: post #70
mepian wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the good ol' trickle-down economics.

It's very difficult to argue in good faith "trickle-down" economics was/is a failure. A rising tide obviously raises all ships, including the nation's poorest. To create vast wealth generally requires vast resources, which requires vast amounts of people. Behemoths the size of Amazon, Walmart, Microsoft, Google, et al employ significant chunks of the population - and not just directly. Trickle-down doesn't mean every…

Considering the decline of economic mobility, increasing income inequality/wealth concentration and most importantly the stagnation of real wages[0], all of which started around the 1980s, it would seem the economic policies prior were more successful in raising all people.

I don’t mean to trivialize the complicated nature of the matter, with the effects of the world wars and globalization + many other factors, it is hard to separate things, but it really does not seem all that difficult to argue that trickle down economics is not better than what we were doing before and to do so in good faith.

Of course, the actual goal of trickle down economics was to concentrate wealth and power into the hands of a few and in that regard it is undeniably a success.

[0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/08/07/for-most-...

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#222

Post by detourdog »

blibble wrote: post #196
whiddershins wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> If we are doing anecdotes, I can do this all day. meanwhile no-one in Europe dies in medical bankruptcy or has to worry about health insurance premiums/deductibles, or daily mass shootings I'd rather have a slightly smaller steak

This is the worst aspect of American politics. Our government represents seriously argue we want the right to be bankrupted by illness.

We had to bail out the auto-industry during 2008 because their competitors existed in public healthcare environments. Nobody talks about it but follow the money.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#223

Post by [deleted] »

carlosjobim wrote: post #204
dougmwne wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true, but as cold hearted as it is, they didn’t have to let them in. Poland sure decided to pick and choose. The Greeks are not having it either. One day there will be a massive wave of climate refugees rushing out of the uninhabitable zone and there will be US soldiers in the border guard towers with flamethrowers. The US will welcome immigrants when it suits them and roast them when it doesn’t. As I am in Berl…

> One day there will be a massive wave of climate refugees rushing out of the uninhabitable zone Are you talking about Canada?

[deleted]

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#224

Post by lostmsu »

rafaelero wrote: post #130
xxpor wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence? Evidence against: https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf

The evidence is math. Even if you have a flat rate and everyone in the population is equally benefitted with social services, there are 50% of people who are contributing less than they take and 50% who are contributing more than they take. That looks even worse when we relax the flax rate assumption (most countries have progressive taxation) and the amount of social benefits a given segment receives (poor people ten…

> The evidence is math.

If there are 101 people, 100 making 101 sandwich per year and 1 doing nothing, and everyone needs 100 sandwiches per year, 99% are contributing more than they take. This works the other way too.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#225

Post by gruez »

carlosjobim wrote: post #204
dougmwne wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true, but as cold hearted as it is, they didn’t have to let them in. Poland sure decided to pick and choose. The Greeks are not having it either. One day there will be a massive wave of climate refugees rushing out of the uninhabitable zone and there will be US soldiers in the border guard towers with flamethrowers. The US will welcome immigrants when it suits them and roast them when it doesn’t. As I am in Berl…

> One day there will be a massive wave of climate refugees rushing out of the uninhabitable zone Are you talking about Canada?

Are you saying canada will be uninhabitable, or people will be going to canada?

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#226

Post by HWR_14 »

dogma1138 wrote: post #101
mrb wrote: post #96

Note this chart shows nominal dollars, not PPP-adjusted. The EU has certainly kept up with the US when looking at PPP GDP from 2008 to 2022: US grew from $14.8T to $25.5T EU grew from $14.3T to $24.3T What that means is that the prices of goods are inflated in the US compared to similar goods in the EU. That's all. Want something interesting? Look at China who grew from $10.0T to $30.3T over the same period (!) Sourc…

No one uses PPP for measuring growth, GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either. The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled.

Isn't PPP per capita a better measure of quality of life than nominal GDP per capita? I care about what I can buy.

Obviously, nominal GDP per capita matters for international vacations.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#227

Post by htfu »

whiddershins wrote: post #132
dougmwne wrote: post #73

Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…

[flagged]

> Gasoline is more expensive

Because we actually tax it properly

> cars tend to be cheaper models and smaller.

Because cars are less part of the lifestyle and SUVs haven't yet prisoner's dilemma'd us completely.

Your other anecdotes are also basically "not spending unecessarily on stuff that is bad for the climate = poor"...

Here's another factor: Europeans need to save up money for our five week vacations, do you think travel is free or something? Hint: that stuff costs way more to do regularly than AC and a redone bathroom. Pah.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#228

Post by gruez »

futureshock wrote: post #89
tinus_hn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I’d like to point out that the open door policy to refugees came because Europe was trying to escape the demographic trap and the collapse of the social safety net. The hope was that young refugees would become net positive GDP contributors for decades, an idea borrowed from the US. If that has failed, it’s due to a failure of integration. Europe can actually be quite a racist place and in many ways the US is better…

>I’d like to point out that the open door policy to refugees came because Europe was trying to escape the demographic trap and the collapse of the social safety net.

This sounds like post hoc justification. If you want immigrants, wouldn't you want to pick the best and brightest, rather than whoever washes up on your shore?

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#229

Post by rafaelero »

lostmsu wrote: post #224
rafaelero wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is math. Even if you have a flat rate and everyone in the population is equally benefitted with social services, there are 50% of people who are contributing less than they take and 50% who are contributing more than they take. That looks even worse when we relax the flax rate assumption (most countries have progressive taxation) and the amount of social benefits a given segment receives (poor people ten…

> The evidence is math. If there are 101 people, 100 making 101 sandwich per year and 1 doing nothing, and everyone needs 100 sandwiches per year, 99% are contributing more than they take. This works the other way too.

You are talking about economic output, and I agree it is very difficult for someone to be a net negative in this metric (someone would have to contribute almost nothing to the economy and take what they need to survive as donation). We are talking about a tax system with contributions and expenses. In this system, less than 50% are net contributors.
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