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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#81

Post by mrtksn »

legitster wrote: post #77
mrtksn wrote: post #46

IMHO the west as a whole will need to re-consider its metrics. Europe, not only Eurozone, lag in absolute numbers of economic activity but the life quality is not that different from the US and arguably it’s even better depending on what is important for you. An appendicitis generates more economic activity in the US but Europeans die les from it. On the other hand, Europe does lag on post soviet era tech(that’s anyt…

I was recently talking with a friend who moved to Germany and loved it. But now that he is raising a family he is planning on moving back to the states. There's definitely a quantity/quality difference. Things in Germany are just nicer . But at a certain point, the "niceness" of things doesn't matter to you much anymore when you are trying to raise a family of 4 in a 800 sq ft apartment.

Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb.

I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unless you actually need it and you won’t be seen by a professor just because you feel like. Germany will try to make you live healthier life through preventative medicine, Turkey will try to give you a 5 minutes access to a doctor and infrastructure quickly.

I’m hearing about Americans complaining on similar stuff. IIRC Americans feel neglected during pregnancy in Germany despite that the US infant mortality rate is almost twice the German one.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#82

Post by midasuni »

slibhb wrote: post #65
notfromhere wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't. Growth in the economy has to increase real wages, and real wages need to keep pace with housing, food, healthcare, etc increases in order to be meaningful. More jobs are only good if they actually provide a living wage.

I don't agree: having more stuff makes people's lives better even if that doesn't show up in terms of real wages.

No it doesn’t. If I spend $100 on takeout because I don’t have time to cook a fresh meal that increases gdp but makes my life worse.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#83

Post by tinus_hn »

dougmwne wrote: post #73

Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…

[flagged]

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#84

Post by midasuni »

mepian wrote: post #50
slibhb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy doubling in size helps most people even if the resulting wealth is unevenly distributed. Goods, services, technologies, jobs, etc are good.

Ah yes, the good ol' trickle-down economics.

When the rich and powerful piss on everyone else.

Oh how far we’ve come since the economy of the 1960s.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#85

Post by legitster »

Before you go too far down the road of politics and policies, but the biggest lever affecting the economic differences comes down to age.

The EU is aging rapidly. Whereas the US had a minor baby-boom with Millenials - there was no equivalent in the EU. So even without any slowdown in labor productivity or even reduction in QOL, the ratio of people participating in the workforce is much lower in Europe.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#86

Post by midasuni »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #32
midasuni wrote: post #5

All “growth” in gdp seems to go to rich people. Normal people have seen stagnant wages and increased costs from the owners. Why should I care if gdp isn’t increasing when I don’t see any gains whether it does or not?

What about: - Your access to mRNA vaccines - Your access to cleaner air due to electric car adoption - Ditto for energy security and renewable sources of electricity - Your chance of dying in a car going down due to new safety features - Your access to crazy advanced cancer treatments that are making progress at almost miraculous paces - Your much improved ability to work from home, cutting out ~2 hours of commuting…

35 year olds on 90%ile income jobs can’t afford to live on their own. Millions are worse off compared to even the 1980s because the productive gains are going to the wealthy.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#87

Post by tivert »

Alupis wrote: post #70
mepian wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the good ol' trickle-down economics.

It's very difficult to argue in good faith "trickle-down" economics was/is a failure. A rising tide obviously raises all ships, including the nation's poorest. To create vast wealth generally requires vast resources, which requires vast amounts of people. Behemoths the size of Amazon, Walmart, Microsoft, Google, et al employ significant chunks of the population - and not just directly. Trickle-down doesn't mean every…

> A rising tide obviously raises all ships, including the nation's poorest.

To throw a wrench in that tired metaphor: a rising tide may raise all ships, but a fat lot of good that does to the poor, if it's only the well-of that can afford to buy a boat.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#88

Post by neverrroot »

Could the energy policy and the costs of electricity for the industry have contributed to this outcome in the eurozone?

Just as an example, Germany has the highest electricity prices in the world (20% higher than second place Italy), and starting April, switched to being a net electricity importer, after it shut down the last remaining nuclear power plants.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#89

Post by futureshock »

tinus_hn wrote: post #83
dougmwne wrote: post #73

Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…

[flagged]

I’d like to point out that the open door policy to refugees came because Europe was trying to escape the demographic trap and the collapse of the social safety net. The hope was that young refugees would become net positive GDP contributors for decades, an idea borrowed from the US. If that has failed, it’s due to a failure of integration. Europe can actually be quite a racist place and in many ways the US is better at offering big opportunities to immigrants and encouraging them to become big tax contributors. The US’s secret sauce is that the only real cultural purity it has to protect is consumer capitalism.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#90

Post by legitster »

mrtksn wrote: post #81
legitster wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was recently talking with a friend who moved to Germany and loved it. But now that he is raising a family he is planning on moving back to the states. There's definitely a quantity/quality difference. Things in Germany are just nicer . But at a certain point, the "niceness" of things doesn't matter to you much anymore when you are trying to raise a family of 4 in a 800 sq ft apartment.

Europe is densely populated in general but there are villages all over the place where you can have a large house like in an American suburb. I think cultural expectations are more defining, for example Turks are frustrated with the healthcare in Europe because they expect to see a specialist ASAP even for the smallest thing and they want antibiotics for it. In Germany you won’t get all the antibiotics you want unles…

I think as much as Americans like the idea of European healthcare systems, I think most of them would be appalled in practice.

Not that it's inherently inferior, but part of the reason healthcare is so expensive in America is that Americans (perhaps a bit spoiled by our own prosperity) demand lots of care. My wife's sister saw specialists 11 different times last year because she was not happy with the advice. And I would not say this is an entirely unheard of extreme.

In the US, if someone gets denied anything from their doctor, it is somewhat of a scandal.

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