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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#61

Post by genocidicbunny »

monero-xmr wrote: post #28
fvdessen wrote: post #15

And yet with all that money you can’t buy European quality of life in the USA

My sister in law is from Spain, had a guaranteed government job at a state run hospital (or some affiliated org) for life, and could retire in her 50s. She chose to bail and come to the US. She hated her boss (who could never be fired), the work was boring, the take home pay was awful, and she lived in a village where she grew up in a tiny apartment. Sure she had enough to eat and wasn’t going to be homeless. But she…

> But she decided that life really wasn’t very exciting and she had no opportunity for growth whatsoever

Dirty little secret in the US is that for very many people, there's no opportunity for growth whatsoever either. It's a relatively small section of society that even gets access to that opportunity. A lot of people in the US would trade their 'exciting' life of working 80+ hours a day to barely be able to pay the bills for the boring job your sister left.

> But hey she could take double the vacation that an average US employee gets!

Uh, if she could take vacation _at all_ she was already head and shoulders above a huge chunk of the workforce in the US.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#62

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

actuallyalys wrote: post #59
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about: - Your access to mRNA vaccines - Your access to cleaner air due to electric car adoption - Ditto for energy security and renewable sources of electricity - Your chance of dying in a car going down due to new safety features - Your access to crazy advanced cancer treatments that are making progress at almost miraculous paces - Your much improved ability to work from home, cutting out ~2 hours of commuting…

These are technology developments, not GDP. Of course, technology developments are part of why GDP grows, but it's possible for tech to improve for everyone while only a minority reaps the economic gains.

Are any of the things I mentioned only available to "rich" people?

Unless your definition of rich is literally everyone in the US and Europe (which could be a fair definition) - then I disagree.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#63

Post by genocidicbunny »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #52
balozi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is great as long as you are not poor. You don't have to be rich, just don't be poor.

And if you are poor and United States, just don't be to disorganized to be able to make use of all the government programs to support you. Sadly, there are a large number of people who cannot do that whether from drugs, trauma, natural inability, etc.

Have you ever actually tried to make use of those programs? You're not going to be living a comfortable happy healthy life on those programs. Relying on them for your survival is a pretty miserable existence.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#64

Post by masfuerte »

mepian wrote: post #50
slibhb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy doubling in size helps most people even if the resulting wealth is unevenly distributed. Goods, services, technologies, jobs, etc are good.

Ah yes, the good ol' trickle-down economics.

AKA tinkle-down economics.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#65

Post by slibhb »

notfromhere wrote: post #34
slibhb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy doubling in size helps most people even if the resulting wealth is unevenly distributed. Goods, services, technologies, jobs, etc are good.

No it doesn't. Growth in the economy has to increase real wages, and real wages need to keep pace with housing, food, healthcare, etc increases in order to be meaningful. More jobs are only good if they actually provide a living wage.

I don't agree: having more stuff makes people's lives better even if that doesn't show up in terms of real wages.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#66

Post by Gibbon1 »

slibhb wrote: post #27
dralley wrote: post #4

I'd rather this be displayed on a line chart than a pair of bar graphs. 2008 is an oddly specific year, a year when the US was in the midst of the housing market collapse and ensuing chaos. Yes, Europe was impacted too, but this chart doesn't show how much, relatively speaking.

The housing crisis is interesting. Post-crisis, Europe adopted austerity measures and the US went the other way. I bet that explains this gap more so than (from the article) unions and Europeans being lazy.

It felt like Germany and France recapitalized their banks on the backs of hard hit countries with little power to fight back. Where the US recapitalized it's banks by loaning them a bunch of funny money from the Fed.

The latter probably worked out better.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#67

Post by qeternity »

genocidicbunny wrote: post #61
monero-xmr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister in law is from Spain, had a guaranteed government job at a state run hospital (or some affiliated org) for life, and could retire in her 50s. She chose to bail and come to the US. She hated her boss (who could never be fired), the work was boring, the take home pay was awful, and she lived in a village where she grew up in a tiny apartment. Sure she had enough to eat and wasn’t going to be homeless. But she…

> But she decided that life really wasn’t very exciting and she had no opportunity for growth whatsoever Dirty little secret in the US is that for very many people, there's no opportunity for growth whatsoever either. It's a relatively small section of society that even gets access to that opportunity. A lot of people in the US would trade their 'exciting' life of working 80+ hours a day to barely be able to pay the…

Ah yes, spoken like someone who has never lived outside the US.

I’m American but I’ve been an expat most of my adult life. I love the rest of the world. But Americans simply do not realize how good they have it.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#68

Post by gitfan86 »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #32
midasuni wrote: post #5

All “growth” in gdp seems to go to rich people. Normal people have seen stagnant wages and increased costs from the owners. Why should I care if gdp isn’t increasing when I don’t see any gains whether it does or not?

What about: - Your access to mRNA vaccines - Your access to cleaner air due to electric car adoption - Ditto for energy security and renewable sources of electricity - Your chance of dying in a car going down due to new safety features - Your access to crazy advanced cancer treatments that are making progress at almost miraculous paces - Your much improved ability to work from home, cutting out ~2 hours of commuting…

The media and politicians know that negativity drives attention. People that pay attention to that and do not think for themselves come away thinking that the world is in terrible shape ( The climate is beyond fixable, The LGBTQ+ are out to get your kids )

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#69

Post by badpun »

monero-xmr wrote: post #48
badpun wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats look much better if you compare the number of hours worked. When accounting for that, US is at the level of Scandinavian countries. Obviously, Spain is still seriously lagging.

OK, well how about we compare New England to Europe? Or just Connecticut and Massachusetts? If you start cutting out this and that country from the EU then you need to cut out Mississippi and Idaho from the US. People always compare the US holistically but conveniently pick and choose which part of the Eurozone they want when it benefits their argument.

Finland and Sweden and Denmark are countries though, just like US or say Mexico.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#70

Post by Alupis »

mepian wrote: post #50
slibhb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy doubling in size helps most people even if the resulting wealth is unevenly distributed. Goods, services, technologies, jobs, etc are good.

Ah yes, the good ol' trickle-down economics.

It's very difficult to argue in good faith "trickle-down" economics was/is a failure.

A rising tide obviously raises all ships, including the nation's poorest.

To create vast wealth generally requires vast resources, which requires vast amounts of people. Behemoths the size of Amazon, Walmart, Microsoft, Google, et al employ significant chunks of the population - and not just directly.

Trickle-down doesn't mean everyone will be a millionaire by doing nothing... instead, it means a ton of smaller companies are boosted while servicing larger companies, and so on - spreading wealth around in terms of employment and providing people with a living they can fairly earn.

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