The force that shapes everything around us: Parking • Hacker News Board

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#171

Post by causality0 » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #165

davidw wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think many people are truly anti-car activists. Just that we need to redimension their absolute centrality to so many policies and budgets. I'm involved in pro-housing politics and it's just amazing how many people are like "well, ok, sure, people need a place to live and all, but let's think FIRST about where to store the automobiles. If that works out, then I guess we can build some housing". They don't say…

It’s mostly because of zoning. If you separate retail from offices from housing, you force people to have cars to get around. Which then requires large parking lots and wide roads to deal with all the cars, in a big feedback loop. Those who can’t drive (about a third of the population are too young, too old, or disabled) are just forced to make do. Not to mention how difficult it is for the poor. Owning a car is real…

Don't forget the socialization of costs that comes in the forms of cities crippling their traffic flow for the sake of dedicating half their road surface to people parking on it instead of driving on it. I love cars but a street covered in unmoving automobiles is an intensely perverse sight.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#172

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

rahkiin wrote: post #92

CalRobert wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We arrive August 2nd. What would you recommend for newcomers? We've signed up with the gemeente and our daughters have spots in the Taalschool. Any ideas on how to meet people?

Sports (your own or of your children), school (parent gatherings, extra activities involving parents) are great ways to meet people that are even in your age group. Get yourself bikes asap, also your children. No need for electrical bikes generally (depends on where you are going to live).

Already bringing my Brompton and Bacchetta (I might actually feel safe on a recumbent!) but we're sorting out a bakfiets when we get there.

I'm delighted there's a lively Halloween group :-)

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#173

Post by majormajor » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 6:58 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #165

davidw wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think many people are truly anti-car activists. Just that we need to redimension their absolute centrality to so many policies and budgets. I'm involved in pro-housing politics and it's just amazing how many people are like "well, ok, sure, people need a place to live and all, but let's think FIRST about where to store the automobiles. If that works out, then I guess we can build some housing". They don't say…

It’s mostly because of zoning. If you separate retail from offices from housing, you force people to have cars to get around. Which then requires large parking lots and wide roads to deal with all the cars, in a big feedback loop. Those who can’t drive (about a third of the population are too young, too old, or disabled) are just forced to make do. Not to mention how difficult it is for the poor. Owning a car is real…

You're not gonna get rid of the need to commute. Once people start forming families, "live next to work" is likely to be very unrealistic for one of the people involved, assuming they both work. One person gets a new job across town and the other doesn't? Setting aside whether or not most people would want to move anytime that happened, there's no longer a single answer. Start throwing kids in the mix and it gets even trickier. Gotta balance the schools in there, and the effect that moving would have on them, etc.

Reduce the need for shopping and entertainment commuting and build more transit so that more routs have practical non-car options and you reduce the need for traffic and parking, but that's realistically an incredibly expensive proposition for many cities. You need a really really really built out transit network to enable something close to point to point commuting in under an hour across a large city. (And traffic and parking becoming crippling things for a city are issues small cities often mostly duck by their nature of being small...)

It's a sort of "we all need to commit to changing our environment systematically for decades" problem.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#174

Post by pmg102 » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 6:59 PM UTC

pharmakom wrote: post #157

ghayes wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why you can’t do this to say 10% of city roads. That way there’s still car accessibility and you can continue to grow public transit, as well. Personally I think the majority of roads should be reclaimed to pedestrians and tracked rail cars. The only exception would be street-local deliveries/residents can enter and drive at say 3mph yielding to all pedestrians.

People literally took to the streets (ironic, I know) when they tried this in London, UK

SOME people did, yes. Others quietly enjoyed the improvements. Things seem to be moving in the right direction, despite the usual reactionary noises.

I read that no councillor had suffered at the ballot box for their pro-LTN news. Which suggests it's a noisy minority.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#175

Post by gwbas1c » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:02 PM UTC

axus wrote: post #153

gwbas1c wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's too bad we don't have a way to quickly setup housing (even temporary) in parking areas. RVs. Don't quote me, but I suspect some temporary shelters during disasters are RVs (and go to the exact parking lots you describe.) > We have an abundance of parking and a shortage of housing But I'm not sure that putting RVs in underutilized parking lots will solve the homeless crisis. (Assuming that's what you're referri…

I thought RVs had to worry about electricity and sewer hookups for anything over a few days.

From the parent:

> Most parking is already located near other utilities so they would already be close by

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#176

Post by jimbob21 » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:06 PM UTC

nharada wrote: post #115

UtopiaPunk wrote: post #30

There's an interesting interview with a designer of SimCity, where he discusses parking: Geoff Manaugh: While you were making those measurements of different real-world cities, did you discover any surprising patterns or spatial relationships Librande: Yes, definitely. I think the biggest one was the parking lots. When I started measuring out our local grocery store, which I don’t think of as being that big, I was bl…

I was curious how much bigger the real stadium parking was. SimCity: https://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/simcity/e/... Real Stadium: https://i.imgur.com/KwT1T53.png

I am surprised that this was surprising to people. Cars are much bigger than people, of course you'd need bigger parking lots than seating space

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#177

Post by niam » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:07 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #128

kibwen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sold my car years ago and moved to Boston. I'll never go back to live anywhere that requires me to own a car. I bike or walk everywhere, and what makes me hopeful is that biking infrastructure in Boston (and neighboring cities like Cambridge) has improved dramatically in the years since I've been here and just keeps getting better. Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022. B…

Although I think everyone I know who lives in Boston/Cambridge owns a car because they either commute/visit to friends out to the suburbs or do regular weekend activities like hiking or canoeing out in the suburbs/mountains--which can also involve specialized transportation for car-camping etc. You can work around a lot of this but a lot of people don't want to if they can afford it. I don't live in the city but I'd…

You probably interact with the types of people who are more likely to spend time in the suburbs, by dint of living in a suburb.

"Affording" a car in Boston is stressful as hell even beyond the cost, and I wouldn't recommend it. My friends who both live and work in the city don't own cars. I ditched my car when I moved into city limits, and ride an EUC, bike, or train to work.

The suburbs would have nothing for me if I didn't have family there. But even there, a weekend pass for the commuter rail costs $10 and can take me as far as Rhode Island if I want.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#178

Post by davidw » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:07 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #173

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mostly because of zoning. If you separate retail from offices from housing, you force people to have cars to get around. Which then requires large parking lots and wide roads to deal with all the cars, in a big feedback loop. Those who can’t drive (about a third of the population are too young, too old, or disabled) are just forced to make do. Not to mention how difficult it is for the poor. Owning a car is real…

You're not gonna get rid of the need to commute. Once people start forming families, "live next to work" is likely to be very unrealistic for one of the people involved, assuming they both work. One person gets a new job across town and the other doesn't? Setting aside whether or not most people would want to move anytime that happened, there's no longer a single answer. Start throwing kids in the mix and it gets eve…

> incredibly expensive proposition for many cities

I lived in Italy for a number of years. It is a poorer country than the United States in a lot of ways, and yet they manage this quite well.

It still comes back to zoning and parking: by allowing denser development, you can plan transit routes that serve a lot more people, some of whom don't even own an automobile.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#179

Post by the_doctah » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

Cockbrand wrote: post #125

david2ndaccount wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is you can’t just convert an area to a pedestrian area as people still need to be able to get there. You need to construct low cost parking garages around the area so people can still get there.

Comments like this make me appreciate living in a city that has a pretty comprehensive public transport coverage, and where bicycling is at least tolerable. The city you describe seems to be only usable by car.

Having just returned from Europe I feel like the public transportation options are so much better.

On the flip side, Amsterdam is great, but I felt like I was constantly dodging bicycles.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#180

Post by hibikir » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 7:14 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #40

damnesian wrote: post #23

>You could imagine a world in which streets were pedestrianized and where we planted trees and gardens and in what is currently space reserved for parking, and closed streets, outside schools, so kids can have places to play. I would love to see a LOT more of this in urban centers. I live in a college town that is about the same size as Iowa City. Iowa City has taken the step of closing off their downtown and making…

A college town's context is very different than that of the central business district and inner city of a large metropolitan area. Context doesn't just matter, it's one of, if not the most, important aspects to consider when selecting a development pattern. You can't turn downtown St. Lous into downtown Iowa City or even 'downtown' Seoul, South Korea. Dreamers hate this reality and will contort their assertions every…

As it happens, a non-trivial amount of Downtown St Louis is now failing commercial real estate: It's not just the AT&T building, which could be had for cheaper than many Seattle single family homes, or the two hotels in receivership, but also now Bank of America plaza. Wework exited downtown too, leaving two more empty floors in One Metropolitan Square. Its current use is basically sporting events, and the few government buildings that have to stay there.

Now, I'd not recommend that we centered any serious investment making downtown less car-friendly, but mainly because downtown's fixes are way too expensive: In its current form, it's not doing well, and not trending up. Walkability could help, but walkability downtown isn't a matter of making Market street narrower, or slower: Many buildings themselves are set up to be anti-pedestrian, with huge setbacks to the street, and no retail space. Just huge office buildings nobody wants to rent. Interventions to help the city of St Louis just have to start in parts of the city that have better bones. Spend a little to make the somewhat successful parts of the city a bit more successful. Allow relatively walkable neighborhoods to become denser, bigger and more walkable, and see if people vote with their feet.

Downtown? We couldn't afford fixing it, for either cars or pedestrians.