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Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

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Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#31

Post by nvm0n1 »

Kinda odd phrasing from Nolan there. "The rise of companies over the last 15 years bandying about words like ‘algorithm,’ not knowing what they mean in any kind of meaningful, mathematical sense."

That's a description of scriptwriters and journalists. Tech companies know well what they mean when they say algorithm, especially what they mean mathematically. It's the non-tech class that talks about algorithms as if they are magical spells of mind control which is why they think that "Meta’s contribution to genocide in Myanmar" is a real thing and why they are shocked that Threads, being a social network, uses a "purely algorithmic feed" (emphasis in the article).

"as AI systems go into the defense infrastructure, ultimately they’ll be charged with nuclear weapons"

The logic of MAD is simple that's why it's a three letter acronym. Nukes could be put under automated control for decades now and AI wouldn't change anything about what those control systems would do. Detect a pile of nukes heading your way from Russia/China -> fire back. No fancy schmancy AI needed for that!

“When I talk to the leading researchers in the field of AI they literally refer to this right now as their Oppenheimer moment,” Nolan said. “They’re looking to his story to say what are the responsibilities for scientists developing new technologies that may have unintended consequences.”

So much more exciting than the banality of the truth: neural networks are useful algorithms but not nuclear weapons. Not even close.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#33

Post by pier25 »

wussboy wrote: post #12
Apocryphon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn’t ever going to happen. The Germans were never even close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_program

Hindsight is 20/20

Exactly. They had to decide without knowing what the Germans were up to.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#34

Post by yadaeno »

andsoitis wrote: post #2

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

So you managed to rationalize not building a nuke through your superior morals. Now inevitably there will be a different group that operate on different moral principles that will eventually develop a nuke. (Unless you somehow think they are too stupid and not capable)

I guess have fun being right and on the side with no nukes?

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#35

Post by babyshake »

andsoitis wrote: post #2

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

Game theory has entered the chat. But since the chat is about nuclear war, I suppose game theory has already entered the chat a long time ago.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#36

Post by [deleted] »

tyleo wrote: post #4
andsoitis wrote: post #2

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

Yeah, this argument is interesting. There are good moral rebuttals. Someone on HN said recently, “your actions remain immoral even if others are ready to be just as immoral as you are.” I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ W.r.t. nukes, for example, there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

[deleted]

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#37

Post by tstrimple »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #27
johnnyworker wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inventing it for the purposes of Regardless of how the sentence continues, there is no such thing. There is making inventions in the world as it currently is, and what follows from that. edit: since the page http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html is down atm, I have to quote it instead of linking it: > People have a series of rationalizations. People say for example that science and technology have their own…

> Regardless of how the sentence continues, there is no such thing. Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say? I was not talking about the inventions themselves but the intent of the inventor Sometimes a person (or organization) sits down and says "I want to accomplish so I am going to put resources towards finding a way to do that" can be anything from "a new way of preserving apples" to "a way to kill a whol…

Like the guy who accidentally killed the most people in history?

https://youtu.be/IV3dnLzthDA

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#38

Post by arisAlexis »

andsoitis wrote: post #2

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

Very easy counter argument: someone else will sell Fentanyl so my action is not immoral

*Before a downvote, understand what I am saying and to what comment is this a reply.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#39

Post by more_corn »

yadaeno wrote: post #34
andsoitis wrote: post #2

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

So you managed to rationalize not building a nuke through your superior morals. Now inevitably there will be a different group that operate on different moral principles that will eventually develop a nuke. (Unless you somehow think they are too stupid and not capable) I guess have fun being right and on the side with no nukes?

I suspect that when German scientists reported that it was infeasible to create a fission chain reaction they knew. Knew that there were ways and knew not to turn their brilliance towards the creation of terrible weapons.

The last step in creation is relinquishing control. And while it is possible to use weapons wisely, an inventor must realize that once a thing is created he has no say in whether it’s used wisely.

For this reason I caution you all against the creation of any weapon you wouldn’t wish to face in the darkness of night, be it in the receiving end or as the responsible party.

Don’t create superhuman targeting devices. Don’t create targeted germ warfare. Don’t create antimatter devices. Don’t use AI to kill.

You are responsible for your own actions and your actions matter. Let us begin there.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#40

Post by willis936 »

I think that his statement highlights a misunderstanding of the capabilities of ML in the near future. It's an honest mistake since all the startups chasing pumps in investment are selling the idea of terrifying power.

A more apt parallel, in my opinion, is that of solar geoengineering. We are doing what Oppenheimer wish we did: ignore its existence. However, the allure, now as it was then, is that it's too little effort for too much power to ignore. It isn't an existential imperative to the global North so it has been dismissed. Make no mistake if climate change posed a direct and immediate existential risk to nations of the global North we would have stopped global warming already. Instead we are waiting for the collision of "nations that can afford solar geoengineering" and "global warming posing a direct and immediate existential risk" in 2-5 decades and doing none of the legwork to avoid unintended consequences because the notion of doing the science is not popular politically.

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