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Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

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Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#21
post #4

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

Yeah, this argument is interesting. There are good moral rebuttals. Someone on HN said recently, “your actions remain immoral even if others are ready to be just as immoral as you are.” I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ W.r.t. nukes, for example, there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

> I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/

The practical rebuttal to people justifying their deeds with sophistry a teenager can see through is to stop them, regardless of whether they like it or not, and not getting too tangled up in the chaff they came up with to rationalize what they are doing.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#22
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this argument is interesting. There are good moral rebuttals. Someone on HN said recently, “your actions remain immoral even if others are ready to be just as immoral as you are.” I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ W.r.t. nukes, for example, there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

It's also worth considering if the act of inventing something horrifying is actually immoral, or if using it for immoral purposes is. For instance, dynamite. We would not have the society we do now without dynamite. The fact that it can also be used to destroy property and kill people makes it a deadly invention, but was it immoral to invent? Of course dynamite is nothing compared to the Atomic Bomb. Or maybe inventi…

> inventing it for the purposes of

Regardless of how the sentence continues, there is no such thing. There is making inventions in the world as it currently is, and what follows from that.

edit: since the page http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html is down atm, I have to quote it instead of linking it:

> People have a series of rationalizations. People say for example that science and technology have their own logic, that they are in fact autonomous. This particular rationalization is profoundly false. It is not true that science marches on in defiance of human will, independent of human will, that just is not the case. But it is comfortable, as I said: it leads to the position that "if I don't do it, someone else will."

> Of course if one takes that as an ethical principle then obviously it can serve as a license to do anything at all. "People will be murdered; if I don't do it, someone else will." "Women will be raped; if I don't do it, someone else will." That is just a license for violence.

> Other people say, and I think this is a widely used rationalization, that fundamentally the tools we work on are "mere" tools; This means that whether they get use for good or evil depends on the person who ultimately buys them and so on.

> There's nothing bad about working in computer vision, for example. Computer vision may very well some day be used to heal people who would otherwise die. Of course, it could also be used to guide missiles, cruise missiles for example, to their destination, and all that. You see, the technology itself is neutral and value-free and it just depends how one uses it. And besides -- consistent with that -- we can't know, we scientists cannot know how it is going to be used. So therefore we have no responsibility.

> Well, that is false. It is true that a computer, for example, can be used for good or evil. It is true that a helicopter can be used as a gunship and it can also be used to rescue people from a mountain pass. And if the question arises of how a specific device is going to be used, in what I call an abstract ideal society, then one might very well say one cannot know.

> But we live in a concrete society, [and] with concrete social and historical circumstances and political realities in this society, it is perfectly obvious that when something like a computer is invented, then it is going to be adopted will be for military purposes. It follows from the concrete realities in which we live, it does not follow from pure logic. But we're not living in an abstract society, we're living in the society in which we in fact live.

> If you look at the enormous fruits of human genius that mankind has developed in the last 50 years, atomic energy and rocketry and flying to the moon and coherent light, and it goes on and on and on -- and then it turns out that every one of these triumphs is used primarily in military terms. So it is not reasonable for a scientist or technologist to insist that he or she does not know -- or cannot know -- how it is going to be used.

-- Joseph Weizenbaum

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#23
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this argument is interesting. There are good moral rebuttals. Someone on HN said recently, “your actions remain immoral even if others are ready to be just as immoral as you are.” I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ W.r.t. nukes, for example, there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

It's also worth considering if the act of inventing something horrifying is actually immoral, or if using it for immoral purposes is. For instance, dynamite. We would not have the society we do now without dynamite. The fact that it can also be used to destroy property and kill people makes it a deadly invention, but was it immoral to invent? Of course dynamite is nothing compared to the Atomic Bomb. Or maybe inventi…

I think a good starting point for this discussion is clarifying the implicit false dichotomy: it's either moral or moral, technology is either good or bad.

To quote Melvin Kranzberg "Technology is neither good nor bad; nor is it neutral".

Just because technology requires people to create it and to use it, does not mean that it has no impact on us (an by extension it also means that it's creation has impacts).

To take an obvious example, guns are not inherently good or bad. But they unlock the possibility of shooting people.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#24

Ah yes, what a better world we would be living in if the Nazis had created the bomb first.

Wasn’t ever going to happen. The Germans were never even close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_program

Your comment made me wonder if there's an alternate history work of fiction where the atom bomb wasn't built. Something like Man in the High Castle for WW2 victory or For All Mankind for the Space Race.

I found:

- The Oppenheimer Alternative https://www.amazon.com/Oppenheimer-Alternative-Robert-J-Sawy... (Fission bomb instead of Fusion bomb)

- The Berlin Project: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/30753656 (earlier atom bomb)

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#25
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this argument is interesting. There are good moral rebuttals. Someone on HN said recently, “your actions remain immoral even if others are ready to be just as immoral as you are.” I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ W.r.t. nukes, for example, there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

> I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ The practical rebuttal to people justifying their deeds with sophistry a teenager can see through is to stop them, regardless of whether they like it or not, and not getting too tangled up in the chaff they came up with to rationalize what they are doing.

A teenager probably would tell that ChatGPT helps her do homework and acts as a Pokémon. And she doesn’t understand why it’s compared to a bomb that was dropped onto Hiroshima (by the military) to stop the aggressor that had attacked the United States.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn’t ever going to happen. The Germans were never even close. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_program

Your comment made me wonder if there's an alternate history work of fiction where the atom bomb wasn't built. Something like Man in the High Castle for WW2 victory or For All Mankind for the Space Race. I found: - The Oppenheimer Alternative https://www.amazon.com/Oppenheimer-Alternative-Robert-J-Sawy... (Fission bomb instead of Fusion bomb) - The Berlin Project: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/30753656 (earli…

That would be a very interesting divergence to explore, with very interesting ramifications for the Cold War, especially if nuclear weapons do get invented later on, but without two bloody live-fire demonstrations to shock the world.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth considering if the act of inventing something horrifying is actually immoral, or if using it for immoral purposes is. For instance, dynamite. We would not have the society we do now without dynamite. The fact that it can also be used to destroy property and kill people makes it a deadly invention, but was it immoral to invent? Of course dynamite is nothing compared to the Atomic Bomb. Or maybe inventi…

> inventing it for the purposes of Regardless of how the sentence continues, there is no such thing. There is making inventions in the world as it currently is, and what follows from that. edit: since the page http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html is down atm, I have to quote it instead of linking it: > People have a series of rationalizations. People say for example that science and technology have their own…

> Regardless of how the sentence continues, there is no such thing.

Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say?

I was not talking about the inventions themselves but the intent of the inventor

Sometimes a person (or organization) sits down and says "I want to accomplish so I am going to put resources towards finding a way to do that"

can be anything from "a new way of preserving apples" to "a way to kill a whole bunch of people at once"

If it turns out that your new way of preserving apples also can be weaponized, is that really your fault for inventing it? That doesn't seem right to me.

Otherwise the only moral action is to not invent anything? Absurd.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth considering if the act of inventing something horrifying is actually immoral, or if using it for immoral purposes is. For instance, dynamite. We would not have the society we do now without dynamite. The fact that it can also be used to destroy property and kill people makes it a deadly invention, but was it immoral to invent? Of course dynamite is nothing compared to the Atomic Bomb. Or maybe inventi…

(1) if one day a nuke was used to deflect an asteroid and save the entire planet, would that then outweigh any deaths caused by nukes and ottenheimer would be a hero rather than a villain? That's a tricky road to go down. (2) as is trying to focus on intent. Do you want to risk absolving Hitler or Pol Pot because they thought they were making the world a better place?

> (2) as is trying to focus on intent. Do you want to risk absolving Hitler or Pol Pot because they thought they were making the world a better place?

I would argue that "trying to make the world better" is too broad to be an intent.

It's an ideal, or something. Maybe that's just language semantics.

As soon as you dig into that ideal at all, the malicious intent becomes extremely clear.

Ideal: "I am going to make the world a better place"

How?

Intent: "By purging lesser humans so my people can become the master race as we should"

Versus

Intent: "By volunteering my time to set up soup kitchens in the inner city"

Ideal leads to intent leads to action leads to outcome.

My opinion, anyways.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth considering if the act of inventing something horrifying is actually immoral, or if using it for immoral purposes is. For instance, dynamite. We would not have the society we do now without dynamite. The fact that it can also be used to destroy property and kill people makes it a deadly invention, but was it immoral to invent? Of course dynamite is nothing compared to the Atomic Bomb. Or maybe inventi…

I think a good starting point for this discussion is clarifying the implicit false dichotomy: it's either moral or moral, technology is either good or bad. To quote Melvin Kranzberg "Technology is neither good nor bad; nor is it neutral". Just because technology requires people to create it and to use it, does not mean that it has no impact on us (an by extension it also means that it's creation has impacts). To take…

If I invent something that can be used for good, but others use it for bad, does it reflect on my character?

Does my good intentions absolve me of the harm my invention did?

Or, the opposite? If I invent something fully intending to do harm with it, but others find non-harmful uses for it, does that absolve me of my original intentions to cause harm?

A gun may not be good or bad, but the intention of the person who invented guns likely were good or bad.

Re: Christopher Nolan wants Oppenheimer to be a cautionary tale for Silicon Valley

#30
post #4

I think the problem is that you need to find a very good counter-argument to the rationalization of "If I don't invent it, someone else will"

Yeah, this argument is interesting. There are good moral rebuttals. Someone on HN said recently, “your actions remain immoral even if others are ready to be just as immoral as you are.” I haven’t heard a good practical rebuttal though :/ W.r.t. nukes, for example, there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

>there is a good chance that mutually assured destruction prevented war despite how terrifying the policy is.

If I bet at the Casino using a martingale system I'll usually leave the Casino with more money than I came with. Doesn't mean that the Martingale system is a winning strategy or that I'm actually beating the house.

MAD certainly prevents war, but that doesn't prove it's worth it.

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