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A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

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Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#161

Post by galaxyLogic »

Eisenstein wrote: post #127
EGreg wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me get this straight Modern cars have engines that are cryptographically ties to keys But the Pentagon couldn’t put biometric locks on their humvees? https://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-takes-dozens-captured-us-humv... They can’t account for trillions of dollars… but we vote them more money they didn’t even ask for https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/us/politics/trump-budget.... ”Mr. Trump’s budget, the largest in f…

Let me get this straight -- there is graft, waste, and incompetence in the defense industry??

The men in power always abuse that power, more or less.

We need oversight but politicians are not very interested in doing oversight because corporations use their money as free speech helping their favorite politicians get re-elected, because of the Supreme Court decision that allows that to happen.

So we need a more informed population to stop corruption from happening, but some politicians don't like the idea that people should be able to read whatever books they want.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#162

Post by pdonis »

goodpoint wrote: post #111
talldatethrow wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another reason you have locks is to show intent to keep others out. You can't shoot someone that walks into your home through an open door. You can shoot someone that rams your door to open it.

You cannot shoot anybody in the largest majority of countries on this planet. Thankfully.

How do you get criminals to obey this nice rule?

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#163

Post by tetraca »

Eisenstein wrote: post #125
henryfjordan wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could get that robot-cooks-as-you-drive idea right, even without the self-driving bit, you can out-compete Dominos by saving half the trips (back to store from delivery address). The technology was immature but the fundamentals were there, and they'd save a not-insignificant amount of gas.

> they'd save a not-insignificant amount of gas I wonder the efficiencies of cooking in a vehicle as opposed to a fixed pizza oven.

That's easy. Put it on treads, and add a tree cutter/stripper, and a hopper, so that it can pick up all the fuel it needs to wood-fire the pizza off the side of the road before it goes to the next destination.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#164

Post by EGreg »

kube-system wrote: post #151
EGreg wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me get this straight Modern cars have engines that are cryptographically ties to keys But the Pentagon couldn’t put biometric locks on their humvees? https://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-takes-dozens-captured-us-humv... They can’t account for trillions of dollars… but we vote them more money they didn’t even ask for https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/us/politics/trump-budget.... ”Mr. Trump’s budget, the largest in f…

Locks are often intentionally omitted from equipment in environments where high availability is prioritized. They are also often omitted in locations where physical security is provided at a broader level.

Sure, let's intentionally omit locks from equipment that is designed not to fall into enemy hands. Let's not have a kill switch, either. Sure, makes sense for an agency with more money to spend than every corporation in America!

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#165

Post by COGlory »

Nextgrid wrote: post #75
fnimick wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That amount of money is absolutely nothing compared to the waste that goes on in the startup industry. Remember the $445 million self driving pizza oven delivery van?

Startup waste is generally funded from investors though. This seems like it might be funded by government grants which are funded by taxes.

Investors using 0% interest loans funded by taxpayers.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#166

Post by master-lincoln »

talldatethrow wrote: post #76
postmortembees wrote: post #20

This is a very engineering solution to a very not-engineering problem. Would this deter thieves? Possibly! Would thieves eventually be able to work around it? Also probably! Would it increase the friction of getting in and driving? Definitely! Today, your house keys are basically useless for security -- getting into your house is trivially easy both destructively and not. But we all use house keys because they feel s…

Another reason you have locks is to show intent to keep others out. You can't shoot someone that walks into your home through an open door. You can shoot someone that rams your door to open it.

WTF? Do you mean that you can't shoot someone without legal consequence in some US jurisdiction if you have an open door? You can still shoot them...

>You can shoot someone that rams your door to open it.

So somebody destroys a door and that entitles you to take their life?

I think in both situations you should just refrain from shooting at all. Seems to work in most of the rest of the world..

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#167

Post by velosol »

EGreg wrote: post #101
gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

So let me get this straight Modern cars have engines that are cryptographically ties to keys But the Pentagon couldn’t put biometric locks on their humvees? https://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-takes-dozens-captured-us-humv... They can’t account for trillions of dollars… but we vote them more money they didn’t even ask for https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/us/politics/trump-budget.... ”Mr. Trump’s budget, the largest in f…

What a nightmare that would be: wearing gloves, fast entry and exit, injury/swapping drivers, sand.

Also those were Humvees taken from Iraqi personnel.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#168

Post by threeio »

giobox wrote: post #105
threeio wrote: post #72

Maybe I'm missing something, but in some of my international travels, rental cars had a keypad that had to be entered correctly prior to the key working. No key code entry, no run. Put the keypad in 3 times incorrectly in a row, system blinks rad, you sat for an hour unless you called the rental place for an override key. Voltage fluctuation aside, it seems like the same system.

I haven't seen a separate keypad immobilizer (the kind where you put key in ignition and turn, but engine wont start until a pin is entered into a separate keypad in the cabin) since I last sat in a Peugeot 205 in the early 90s - I'd be shocked to see one on anything made in the last decade that isn't a weird aftermarket accessory. I've never seen this on a rental car in Europe/US in recent memory. The pin pads Ford…

Travel to Israel, its in -every- car.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#169

Post by K0balt »

memetomancer wrote: post #143
K0balt wrote: post #84

1.2 million grant for this? Now I’ve seen grift, but come on. I want to hire their grant writer. Literally a relay in the starter lead. This looks like one of my afternoon projects, and I’m not even joking. I have a 1990s montero diesel and it leaks power, and I often forget to disconnect the terminal. So I bought a relay from AliExpress (same one shown in this photo but one size up) and hooked it up with an esp32 an…

This is a frustrating yet common sort of take. Yes, this is simple, as the article clearly points out. Yes it is obvious in retrospect. But did you do anything with your brilliant work besides bodge your terrible car a few more miles down the road? There is value to developing the entire system... to ensuring the keypad mechanism is reasonably robust and tamper proof. There is value to understanding the vehicle as a…

No, really, good for them.

But don’t be talking down on my car. That’s just not cool.

That beast is the workhorse of the farm and it gets the job done.

None of the windows roll down though and it’s hot as hell inside, so it discourages unnecessary use, saving the planet.

It rarely sees pavement but it drags what needs to be dragged and it pulls the utility rigs out after they deliver to us.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#170

Post by gruez »

oxfordmale wrote: post #103
gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies. The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help. However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a slee…

> What about a classical mechanical key?

can be picked

>The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographical signing won't help.

AFAIK the attack you describe only applies to keyless entry systems (ie. you can open and start a car without having to pull your key out), which is related but not the same as an immobilizer. Transponder keys without keyless entry systems still exist on today's models, and is the default on most cars unless you opt for an upgrade.

>However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a sleep mode when they have been inactive for a minute.

That helps against someone cloning your key while you're at your desk, but it seems way easier to clone the key while the driver is walking away from the car? That way you know which car to steal and don't have to follow the victim into the building, which might be secured (eg. office building with badge system). Measuring RTT time and/or trilateration (multiple antennas inside car) should be much more reliable.

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