A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves • Hacker News Board

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#101

Post by EGreg » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

So let me get this straight

Modern cars have engines that are cryptographically ties to keys

But the Pentagon couldn’t put biometric locks on their humvees?

https://www.ibtimes.co.in/isis-takes-dozens-captured-us-humv...

They can’t account for trillions of dollars… but we vote them more money they didn’t even ask for

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/us/politics/trump-budget....

”Mr. Trump’s budget, the largest in federal history, includes a nearly 5 percent increase in military spending — which is more than the Pentagon had asked for“

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#102

Post by hutzlibu » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

postmortembees wrote: post #63

hutzlibu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today, your house keys are basically useless for security" They are not useless. Only some people have the skills and tools to open them - so they are useful at keeping most people out, even though they don't provide perfect protection. Most thieves are not professionals, but for example junkies who look for something easy. A simple automatic light, is already doing wonders to keep them away.

Raking house locks is a) not difficult and b) not expensive. You don't need to be a professional to do that. But also, bricks through windows are equally not difficult and not expensive, though they do leave a bit more evidence. When my neighbors have been burgled, this is the preferred method of entry I've seen.

"But also, bricks through windows are equally not difficult and not expensive, though they do leave a bit more evidence"

But that would be loud. You don't want attention when breaking in. (Unless you are a fucked up junkie not caring about anything anymore)

But yes, my parents for example are paranoid about always locking the front door 2 times(and get angry if I don't do it when I visit), but have a glass door in the back. There are also glass cutters.

"Raking house locks is a) not difficult and b) not expensive. You don't need to be a professional to do that"

But you do have to make some investment. They are illegal to purchase (in most places), I would not know, where to start looking. And then you have to learn to use them. And I know someone who did play with those a bit - yet he still could not enter my door at all. So it is a barrier.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#103

Post by oxfordmale » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

What about a classical mechanical key? I am referring to a laser cut key, the type that can't be easily lock picked, other than in Hollywood movies.

The problem is relay theft, where thief's relay the signal of your fob key inside the house to the car via a simple antenna and amplifier system. Cryptographically signing won't help.

However, this can be fixed by adding a motion sensor that makes key fobs go into a sleep mode when they have been inactive for a minute. Upmarket car manufacturers like Mercedes have started to add this. The only reason this is not yet widespread as increased car theft is good for car manufacturers.

Keyless cars top the list for most stolen cars across the UK, with around 93% of all stolen vehicles in 2020 being taken without vehicle keys. Addressing this stupidity would be the first step. It is like projecting your bank account details and security details on the facade of your building, and then being surprised your bank account is drained.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#104

Post by localtoast » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

indymike wrote: post #35

localtoast wrote: post #4

As a kid, I watched my father pull a single fuse from the family 4x4's fuse box whenever we left the vehicle unattented for any extended period. Does a practical, lower-tech deterent exist?

This is the 2¢ solution to the problem... and usually doesn't even require you to pop the hood if the fuse is inside the car.

Yup; in our case it was in the cabin, a little to the left of the steering column.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#105

Post by giobox » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

threeio wrote: post #72

Maybe I'm missing something, but in some of my international travels, rental cars had a keypad that had to be entered correctly prior to the key working. No key code entry, no run. Put the keypad in 3 times incorrectly in a row, system blinks rad, you sat for an hour unless you called the rental place for an override key. Voltage fluctuation aside, it seems like the same system.

I haven't seen a separate keypad immobilizer (the kind where you put key in ignition and turn, but engine wont start until a pin is entered into a separate keypad in the cabin) since I last sat in a Peugeot 205 in the early 90s - I'd be shocked to see one on anything made in the last decade that isn't a weird aftermarket accessory. I've never seen this on a rental car in Europe/US in recent memory.

The pin pads Ford often fit to doors are not the same thing - those are to provide cabin access without a key at places such as worksites or camping trips etc.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#106

Post by rconti » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

rootsudo wrote: post #15

1. It's re-inventing a kill switch. 2. It adds tons of uselees innovation to a kill switch. 3. If your car is antique/valuable/interesting, the people stealing it know the starting diagram/circuit and can easily rip it out/bypass it. 4. IF your car is antique/valuable/interesting you wouldn't add this as it can depreciate the car value/make it more ugly. You're not installing this in a brand new BMW M6, or a new Hond…

> Outside the USA car thefts are not as common and in Domestic Japan/India/Asia a transponder is still pretty rare.

My priors are that car theft inside the USA is fairly rare now, but exceedingly common in Europe. I'm constantly hearing about all kinds of sophisticated electronic attacks on vehicles particularly in the UK, that are simply not an issue in the US.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#107

Post by StevenXC » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

K0balt wrote: post #84

1.2 million grant for this? Now I’ve seen grift, but come on. I want to hire their grant writer. Literally a relay in the starter lead. This looks like one of my afternoon projects, and I’m not even joking. I have a 1990s montero diesel and it leaks power, and I often forget to disconnect the terminal. So I bought a relay from AliExpress (same one shown in this photo but one size up) and hooked it up with an esp32 an…

Speaking as someone who's reviewed for NSF before, I'd have expected this grant to also include resources to get the product to market, which I'm assuming you haven't done.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#108

Post by incahoots » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

rootsudo wrote: post #69

incahoots wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue your 3rd point is more based in the reality of movies that involve unique cars (Gone in 60 Seconds, etc). Most unique rides are typically stolen due to owner laziness(leaving keys on top of a tire, keys in the visor, left running, etc.).

I disagree - many cars are kept in parking lots - especially in HCOL. Access is basically whenever - if someone sees it there, and not moved often and such they know they can most likely attack it. Stripping an security system is also doable, via the can-bus attacks we see of late, but more personalized can just be to replace the ECU. In many cars this can be done in less than 15 minutes. Car shopping as presented in…

Thanks for reminding me of the Miata/Civic thefts, I nearly forgot how big that was in the mid 2010s. I recall so many articles of that happening.

I was living in Miami during that time, a friend had his EK hatch stolen, beautiful example too, spent a fortune on that car and it showed. Of course the aftermath was the same ole story of it being stripped, and cut to a near nonexistent state.

Now thinking on this "solution" the amount of social engineering that happens today will defeat this pretty quickly. Most of the thefts for cars like my friends were done by people who knew the owners.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#109

Post by calvinmorrison » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

okl wrote: post #64

calvinmorrison wrote: post #48

this is 'cool but stupid'. Running a relay into the car to a switch thats protected just moves a analog electrical problem somewhere else, it' still just two wires to jump at the end of the day What you want is what smarter cars have, integration to the ECU. So you put in the wrong key, it does a crypto exchange with the ecu, and the ECU won't crank. Even if you crank it by jumping the solenoid, it won't power the fu…

Right, the image shows it connected to the battery pole. Just pop the hood, bridge the contacts. Any proper solution has to be integrated into some essential part that is difficult to access (like the ECU). Maybe they want that thing to talk to the ECU? Otherwise, how is it locking the car?

a lot of cars have cutoffs switches for all sorts of stuff, like rollover switches, overboost limiters etc... you could tap into any of those to immobilize a car.

but you need to tuck that shit up under neath in the dash or wherever the ECU is, and that doesn't solve any issues because it's still just one wire to short out. You need something tucked up underneath you can use wireless transponder so theres nothing obvious preventing it from cranking.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#110

Post by matsemann » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

This is a tech solution for a non-tech problem. Why is there an uprising in car thefts? Why do people feel the need to steal someone's expensive property?

Deal with those issues first. Or someone will smash a window to steal something valuable no matter what you try.