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A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

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Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#81

Post by ilyt »

soared wrote: post #5

Cool idea! Seems like car thieves could probably just carry around another device to hack it, but certainly could be a deterrent. I don’t know much about it but it seems like a key is supposed to be the password for the car, so seemingly the key is where improvements could be made. Like add unique and random differences in the metal on each key and have the key slot read those and only turn on the car if it matches (…

The hacks that are being used are bypassing the authentication device so improving authentication device is pointless.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#82

Post by oxfordmale »

What about an old fashioned mechanical key?

Car manufacturers are directly to blame for the increased theft of cars. It is a win win for them, as it results in higher car sales. If a dood manufacturer would sell doors that can be easily opened, everyone would complain. Far less so with cars.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#83

Post by dharmab »

gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

This would be nice to retrofit onto my old Honda, which has an easily exploited flaw in its rolling code system.

Modern cars also have new vulnerabilities: https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#84

Post by K0balt »

1.2 million grant for this?

Now I’ve seen grift, but come on. I want to hire their grant writer.

Literally a relay in the starter lead. This looks like one of my afternoon projects, and I’m not even joking. I have a 1990s montero diesel and it leaks power, and I often forget to disconnect the terminal.

So I bought a relay from AliExpress (same one shown in this photo but one size up) and hooked it up with an esp32 and some discrete components.

It senses my phones Bluetooth radio and energises the relay if I turn the key on when I’m within a few feet, as well as any other Bluetooth radios I authenticate.

I can also just turn on the wipers momentarily and it will latch the relay. If the vehicle is not running, the relay unlatches in 15 minutes.

That way I can basically forget that it exists, problem solved. It has been working flawlessly for two years now. The whole thing took me about 3 hours to put on strip board and program, another half hour to enclose and mount it.

Give me an hour more in micropython and I could make it require a passcode entered on your phone with a secret wiper switch sequence as a backup. If I threw a five dollar Hall effect current sensor (as shown in their project) it could require a whole dog and pony show of switch activations to unlock it. Adjusting it to different vehicles would be a one- time calibration sequence like I use for my water flow meters.

I guess I should have applied for a grant.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#85

Post by talldatethrow »

postmortembees wrote: post #44
EA-3167 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most locks on most residential facilities are not about security so much as a "tamper evident" seal for insurance purposes.

I guarantee you I, or anyone else with ~30m of training can get into 95% of homes without leaving much evidence that the locks were tampered with. House locks are very easy to pick open.

If I know my door is locked, and you get in, I can still shoot you since I know I locked it, thus you'll have the tools somewhere near you showing you broke in.

If it's just a code, tons of legal ambiguity comes up. Can a gf shoot her exbf that she gave the keycode to last month?

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#86

Post by knodi123 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #53
postmortembees wrote: post #20

This is a very engineering solution to a very not-engineering problem. Would this deter thieves? Possibly! Would thieves eventually be able to work around it? Also probably! Would it increase the friction of getting in and driving? Definitely! Today, your house keys are basically useless for security -- getting into your house is trivially easy both destructively and not. But we all use house keys because they feel s…

"Today, your house keys are basically useless for security" They are not useless. Only some people have the skills and tools to open them - so they are useful at keeping most people out, even though they don't provide perfect protection. Most thieves are not professionals, but for example junkies who look for something easy. A simple automatic light, is already doing wonders to keep them away.

> Only some people have the skills and tools to open them - so they are useful at keeping most people out,

No, not really. A large part of the security of locks comes from most people not knowing that they have the tools and skills to open them. It's like if everyone taped their door shut, and we depended on most people not knowing that tape is easily removed.

My kid accidentally locked us out of the house the other day by twisting the knob lock on our garage door. Turns out we never got a key for that lock when we bought the house - oops! And we didn't have keys for the back door, for complicated reasons. No worries, I took my wife's key ring and used the key to her parents' house to open our back door. In my experience, most keys work in most locks, if you just apply a light turning force and then rake the key in and out a bunch of times, ending with the key sticking all the way out except for a millimeter or two.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#87

Post by dharmab »

kotaKat wrote: post #74

The GM EV1 had this solved early on: they didn't use keys at all - just a numeric PIN that you entered on the door and on the center console to start. ;) http://www.kingoftheroad.net/charge_across_america/graphics_... Slap your PIN in and hit the RUN button and it'd fire right up.

I believe Ford has a patent on keypad entry. Many of their vehicles have it.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#88

Post by commandar »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #61
gruez wrote: post #16

>At the end of the three-year project, the team aims to have a commercially viable prototype that can be scaled up to commercial production, first as a theft deterrent device, and potentially later as a complete vehicle entry and control system that could replace traditional keys and fobs. What's the point of this? Modern cars already have engines that are cryptographically tied to keys[1]. They're not perfect, but i…

Wasn't there a rash of thefts of Kia and Hyundai cars recently?

That was because the base model of those vehicles didn't have an immobilizer like every other car on the market as a cost cutting measure. They also have ignition switches that are relatively trivial to bypass.

It's possible that some other manufacturer may try it again in the future, but the hit to Hyundai/Kia's reputation has been substantial.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#89

Post by ilyt »

johnea wrote: post #8

A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves It's so simple, it can be done "With a new $1.2 million dollar grant from the National Science Foundation"... I guess simple doesn't mean what it used to mean...

The amount is comical but there is still some development required to turn DIY hack into actual product.

Re: A surprisingly simple way to foil car thieves

#90

Post by henryfjordan »

fnimick wrote: post #43
screamingninja wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. What's even worse is that it takes a huge research grant to come up with this. > With a new $1.2 million dollar grant from the National Science Foundation...

That amount of money is absolutely nothing compared to the waste that goes on in the startup industry. Remember the $445 million self driving pizza oven delivery van?

If you could get that robot-cooks-as-you-drive idea right, even without the self-driving bit, you can out-compete Dominos by saving half the trips (back to store from delivery address).

The technology was immature but the fundamentals were there, and they'd save a not-insignificant amount of gas.

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