The force that shapes everything around us: Parking • Hacker News Board

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#61

Post by throw0101a » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 3:56 PM UTC

lucumo wrote: post #32

TeeWEE wrote: post #5

Come to the Netherlands. Sell your car. Buy a bike. A car is not really a status symbol here. Its more like a liability.

Nonsense. This is only true if you live in an inner city bubble. Cars are pretty popular ways of getting about in the suburbs and rural areas.

Oh the Urbanity recently visited the Netherlands and did a profile video, "The Fascinating Human-Scale Urbanism of Dutch Suburbia":

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nImFJ7KKjAo

> Cars are pretty popular ways of getting about in the suburbs and rural areas.

But how much are cars needed on a day-to-day basis for day-to-day errands? I don't think any is saying that they are not useful (at times), but you can have them be less necessary.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#62

Post by falcolas » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

ttymck wrote: post #8

falcolas wrote: post #6

I think you need to go one level deeper: People needing to move non-trivial distances for periodic tasks shapes everything. Cars, and thus car parking, come about because of this need. Even before cars existed, roads and parking (such as hitching posts and stables) still existed because people needed to move. And even bicycles (electric or not) need parking too. There are startups dedicated to creating automated bike…

Why do I need to go to the mall? Because there is no retail zoning closer to my home.

Because some things are too expensive to keep in stock (at least with any variety in styles/brands/etc) at local retail stores? Clothing, hobby supplies, computer peripherals, etc.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#63

Post by throw0101a » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

xnx wrote: post #13

Seems like parking is a side effect for people's preference for larger houses and yards. Convince people to live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors, and the parking situation would change dramatically.

> Convince people to live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors, and the parking situation would change dramatically.

Completely unnecessary. Want a front yard, back yard, and garage (attached to a laneway)? Plenty of that was build pre-WW2:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0&t=1m8s

The Oh the Urbanity channel has a video on the (mistaken) idea that "urban living" = Manhattan / Hong Kong apartment blocks:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCmz-fgp24E

Examples (Streetview):

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/125+Hampton+Ave,+Toronto,+...

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O...

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+...

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/70+Jackman+Ave+Toronto,+ON

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#64

Post by falcolas » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

SamBorick wrote: post #12

falcolas wrote: post #6

I think you need to go one level deeper: People needing to move non-trivial distances for periodic tasks shapes everything. Cars, and thus car parking, come about because of this need. Even before cars existed, roads and parking (such as hitching posts and stables) still existed because people needed to move. And even bicycles (electric or not) need parking too. There are startups dedicated to creating automated bike…

> People needing to move non-trivial distances for periodic tasks shapes everything. Cars, and thus car parking, come about because of this need. This is not true. Every city in the US used to have a robust public transit system. No cars or parking lots needed. You can hitch 2 horses per car space, and 10-20 bikes in the same space. Those pre-car public transit systems were bankrupted by artificially low fares, and b…

> Every city in the US used to have a robust public transit system.

Every major urban center, perhaps. No city in Montana (I'll go so far as to say the midwest, minus perhaps Chicago) has a "robust" public transit system.

And even when we create a perfect 15 minute utopia, people will still need one-off transportation on a periodic basis to spots more than 15 minutes away. Doctor visits, specialized purchases, bulk orders, building materials, recreation, etc.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#65

Post by throw0101a » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #28

the_snooze wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing urban environments. A lot of people live in those places already. But a lot of people prefer to live elsewhere. Differences in preference is fine. What doesn't make sense though is driving in urban environments, especially single-occupant vehicles that make up the vast majority of motor traffic in major cities. Keep the suburbs. But I think it'd be good to make cities painful to drive in for all but…

> it'd be good to make cities painful to drive in This is the wrong approach. Don't intentionally make driving worse for anyone, anywhere, ever. If you want people to use transit instead, then improve it until it's a better option than driving is today.

> Don't intentionally make driving worse for anyone, anywhere, ever.

Why not?

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#66

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:17 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #9

TeeWEE wrote: post #5

Come to the Netherlands. Sell your car. Buy a bike. A car is not really a status symbol here. Its more like a liability.

For what percentage of people in rural or suburban America do you think "move to the Netherlands" is a realistic suggestion?

The Dutch American Friendship Treaty makes it slightly more attainable than most other European countries, for those who employ themselves at least.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#67

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:18 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #37

stronglikedan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> share walls with their neighbors I honestly don't know why anyone would ever want to do that. To me, it's only done out of necessity, and is a driving force in motivating people to get the hell out of that situation asap. But the cool thing is, some people can choose that, if that's what they desire, even though I can't understand why.

There are unfortunately some people who say that we should abolish suburbs and force everyone to live in a city like that.

Who is saying this?

At most, what I've seen is people saying we should not be forced to build _only_ this type of dwelling in a given place.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#68

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #28

the_snooze wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing urban environments. A lot of people live in those places already. But a lot of people prefer to live elsewhere. Differences in preference is fine. What doesn't make sense though is driving in urban environments, especially single-occupant vehicles that make up the vast majority of motor traffic in major cities. Keep the suburbs. But I think it'd be good to make cities painful to drive in for all but…

> it'd be good to make cities painful to drive in This is the wrong approach. Don't intentionally make driving worse for anyone, anywhere, ever. If you want people to use transit instead, then improve it until it's a better option than driving is today.

The best way to improve transit is to take space away from cars and give it to busses, bikes, and walking.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#69

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #44

tekla wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. This is why pedestrians die. Force cars to go slower in cities. They recently added a pedestrian island in the road near where I live. It is not unnoticeable. With paint lines, high reflective markings, and literally a concrete wall. Literally on day 1, a car made an illegal left turn and hit the clearly marked island at 20mph faster than the speed limit. It jumped the 3 foot high barrier, but the pedestrian on…

If you want to make pedestrians safer, you can do that without having to make driving miserable, by building elevated pedestrian walkways.

And how do I walk in to a shop from this walkway?

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#70

Post by tzs » Mon, Jul 17, 2023, 4:20 PM UTC

TeeWEE wrote: post #5

Come to the Netherlands. Sell your car. Buy a bike. A car is not really a status symbol here. Its more like a liability.

Yet a heck of a lot of people have cars there. Private car ownership in the Netherlands is around 590 per 1000 population. It's within 10% of Germany on cars per 1000 population and on percentage of families that own a car.

The Netherlands stands out for its excellent biking facilities so that people who cannot afford a car are not screwed like they are in many places, and people with a car don't have to use it is as often, but car ownership there is in the same ballpark as most of the rest of Europe.