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Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

reuters.com

201–210 of 336 posts

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#201
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This can lead to unfair results, not for you — who cares about you — but for your victims: If a $1 billion company has killed 100 people, the first 10 who sue might get $100 million each of damages, leaving nothing for the remaining 90. There is a valid point there, but one could argue it sets up unfair precedent for companies to act in bad faith if they can get off easy.

This is assuming the first 10 victims are going to act in a selfish way. That's basically assuming victims behave like companies (which must be selfish because their management has to protect them). That's despicable.

> That's despicable.

What's despicable? That people would operate in their own self-interest, without regard to potential harm that is not in any way their fault coming to people they've never met? Or the "assumption" that people would behave that way?

If acknowledging how people normally behave, especially when there's no moral obligation for them to behave otherwise, seems despicable, a lot of reality will become unacknowledgeable.

Why would a claimant intentionally take a lower settlement to keep funds available for later claimants? They have as much obligation to do so as you do to give up a portion of your paycheck to make sure claimants against J&J are paid out. Why would being the victim of crime specially obligate someone? Isn't that just a second victimization?

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#202
post #4

In some ways the talc controversy does seem similar to the silicone breast implant controversy in the 1990’s. An overview is at https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.15.4.206

Isn't the mechanism for the talc -> {ovarian cancer, mesothelioma} connection much clearer and stronger though? That talc co-occurs with asbestos, which is known to be highly carcinogenic and to cause the types of cancers being encountered here. The asbestos fibers were also (allegedly) found in laboratory analysis of samples of the commercial talc powder product.

>Isn't the mechanism for the talc -> {ovarian cancer, mesothelioma} connection much clearer and stronger though?

No; not at all. It's extremely dubious indeed, in fact.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"Hmm, you raise systemic concerns yet you use the system because you live in a society enmeshed in it" is not a winning argument.

Not in the general case, but in this specific case it does show that limited liability does more than provide welfare to companies to but also protects a large number of individual investors, including the commenter.

That seems like a relevant counterargument to me.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather see J&J go out of business entirely.

I get the sentiment, but if I stop and think about it, I don't understand the math. I'm not intending to criticize since I struggle with this myself. Try on this hypothetical. Imagine that ten people in a giant company called ACME made some decisions that led to 50,000 people getting hurt. ACME also employs 100,000 hard working people, representing perhaps 0.3-0.4 million family members dependent upon that income. Im…

>Imagine further that ACME's other products have dramatically improved the lives of hundreds of millions of other people.

ACME has already been compensated financially for their products, so I don't think we should count them again in the ethical calculus.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather see J&J go out of business entirely.

I get the sentiment, but if I stop and think about it, I don't understand the math. I'm not intending to criticize since I struggle with this myself. Try on this hypothetical. Imagine that ten people in a giant company called ACME made some decisions that led to 50,000 people getting hurt. ACME also employs 100,000 hard working people, representing perhaps 0.3-0.4 million family members dependent upon that income. Im…

This isn't a real argument, it's a digression.

It's like not taking down a criminal mafia because the income of the enterprise goes to take care of at least 10x as many children, wives, dogs and cats than people who were actively committing the crimes. It's like not ordering the the proceeds of a crime be returned to the victims because the house the thief purchased with them is so beautiful, and the thief's daughter so well-behaved.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather see J&J go out of business entirely.

I get the sentiment, but if I stop and think about it, I don't understand the math. I'm not intending to criticize since I struggle with this myself. Try on this hypothetical. Imagine that ten people in a giant company called ACME made some decisions that led to 50,000 people getting hurt. ACME also employs 100,000 hard working people, representing perhaps 0.3-0.4 million family members dependent upon that income. Im…

The rights to ACME's products (and equipment to manufacture them) will be sold in bankruptcy to other companies that didn't give people cancer. These companies will continue to manufacture and sell them.

As we all know capitalism is the most efficient economic system, those 100,000 hard working people will go work for other companies. I'm sure another company that knows its products contain asbestos would love to hire the legal and PR team that has experience in suing scientists who link products to cancer.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The wealthiest 10% own 89% of stocks.

> The wealthiest 10% own 89% of stocks.

Interesting breakdown of stock ownership across demographics and time: https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock/

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a classic "what could possibly go wrong" move, long ago the federal government decided that you can't discharge student debt in bankruptcy, because if you could, then no one would lend education money (which is not collateralizable) and fewer people would go to college.

Why wouldn't that apply to any credit that can be dismissed through bankruptcy?

Collateral.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather see J&J go out of business entirely.

I get the sentiment, but if I stop and think about it, I don't understand the math. I'm not intending to criticize since I struggle with this myself. Try on this hypothetical. Imagine that ten people in a giant company called ACME made some decisions that led to 50,000 people getting hurt. ACME also employs 100,000 hard working people, representing perhaps 0.3-0.4 million family members dependent upon that income. Im…

> Imagine that ten people in a giant company called ACME made some decisions that led to 50,000 people getting hurt. ACME also employs 100,000 hard working people, representing perhaps 0.3-0.4 million family members dependent upon that income.

I employ thousands of men, women and children in my mines, many in the poorest and most conflict-ridden parts of the world. The gemstones we produce are some of the most highly valued products out there - what could produce more happiness than an engagement ring?

And yet despite all the good I do, when I want to hunt and kill one or two human beings for sport, apparently it's still illegal. Even when I offered to use people who were terminally ill anyway, and I offered to compensate their families appropriately.

I can only hope that in the future, our political leadership will be more rational and less emotional about these things

/s

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