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Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

reuters.com

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Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#151
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research might be hard, harder than whatever else the rest of the world is doing, but the tenure system is not giving us the best researchers. It rewards those that are at the right place at the right time, it's mostly luck of the current spectacle, and then it sets those "accomplished" people up for failure as they eventually see their luck running out. They are very motivated to use less and less ethical tools for…

This also describes the ultra-wealthy quite well, but few are in favor of a wealth tax.

But because “some day it’ll be me and I won’t want to pay that”

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#152
post #137

Scratching the surface on talc, it's difficult to determine what should/should-not be done. Cancer.org has a page on talc[0] and from it: > Studies of personal use of talcum powder have had mixed results, although there is some suggestion of a possible increase in ovarian cancer risk. There is very little evidence at this time that any other forms of cancer are linked with consumer use of talcum powder. > Until more…

No doubt I'll be downloaded into oblivion, but it's a massive money making venture for lawyers, similar to "silicone breast implants cause cancer" back in the 90's (which turned out to be false). The FDA did test randomly test a bunch of talc products and the "FDA found “sub-trace” levels, or no greater than 0.00002%, of chrysotile asbestos contamination in a bottle purchased from an online retailer." That's 0.2 part…

>That's it. The patient's and family member's word. No testing of samples for asbestos contamination, no review of their home to see if there was asbestos. Just a sworn statement.

I just looked at the two studies referenced in the article - Moline 2019 and Emory, Kradin, and Maddox 2020.

One might assume that they looked at large samples of people with and without talc exposure and with and without a mesothelioma diagnosis to find a correlation. That assumption would be incorrect. Sample sizes were small, n=33 and n=75, respectively. In both studies, all subjects had a mesothelioma diagnosis. As you said, they relied on patient and family member statements that they had no asbestos exposure other than from cosmetic talc (something we now know to be false). They asked subjects when they started using talc, how long they used it, and to what degree they used it, and then calculated average latency to onset from that. They also looked at tissue biopsies in a subset of the subjects (e.g., 11 of the 75 in the later study) and confirmed the presence of asbestos fibers and made an attempt at calculating the fiber concentration in 9 of the 11. It is unclear exactly what these studies purport to demonstrate. There's really no conclusion to draw other than "these people all have mesothelioma, some of them have asbestos fibers in their lungs, they all claim to never have had any exposure to asbestos, and oh by the way they all also used cosmetic talc to varying degrees over the years".

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#153
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well, there are all these universities and professors who have tenure, there are all these journals, there are all these systems and people have been promised lifetime employment.” Odd that tenure is singled out as the core of the problem. I'd say the undermining of tenure is a large part of the problem. Research is hard - very hard - you are being asked to discover stuff nobody else has - to push the boundaries of…

Research might be hard, harder than whatever else the rest of the world is doing, but the tenure system is not giving us the best researchers. It rewards those that are at the right place at the right time, it's mostly luck of the current spectacle, and then it sets those "accomplished" people up for failure as they eventually see their luck running out. They are very motivated to use less and less ethical tools for…

Eh?

Why does having job security motivate you to make stuff up - incidentally, the only way you might actually lose your job?

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#154

This agency https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/chemicals/talc... seems to downplay the risk of cancer. Is it possible Johnson and Johnson have been maligned? I'm not an advocate, I'd be interested in seeing significant evidence that their product causes cancer. However, I'd like to see a firm distinction between talc and talc contaminated with asbestos. The link with asbestos and cancer is clear. I'm not c…

My understanding is that it naturally is in the material where talc is mined, so the inherent risk is always there.

Well that'd be enough for me to not want to use talc

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the Levine article explained, and as has been reiterated several times in this comment thread: J&J is not "freed from the shackles of any liability", because it is still liable to its own subsidiary for the talc lawsuit claims, up to the full value of J&J itself (the parent company).

Sorry, it's a game of three-card monte. Glad Matt is confident he can play and win, always the optimist.

Are you proud of your ignorance? Seems like you're not interested in understanding, just in continuing to feel outraged.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#156

As someone who did a PhD and published and read many papers (in ML) I believe vast majority of papers in ML are misleading. If in fact every paper that claims a better performance over state of the art was true we would have solved AI by now. You see all sorts of problems when you dig deeper into the technical details of peer reviewed publications (even in top tier conferences) including misleading baselines, statist…

When you become a world expert in a very narrow area of a field - like when you do a PhD - I found you discover that around 50% of papers are either pointless, misleading or wrong. Let me be clear - the largest proportion of those are the pointless ones ( the reader already knew what's in the paper ). Some of this is because research is hard, a lot of it is because of the immense pressure to publish and the strong bi…

"Safe and effective"

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The basic idea of bankruptcy is that if you have a company with $1,000 of assets and $2,000 of liabilities, you can’t pay back everyone everything you owe them. You could just pay back the first creditors who show up and ask for their money back, until the $1,000 is gone, and then give the remaining creditors zero, but that seems unfair I'm entirely unconvinced that J&J couldn't pay back everything they owe, to eve…

I was a juror on a very small case. A previous trial assigned guilt. Our trial was to determine damages. It was eye opening for me. We were not allowed to know things like medical bills and costs the victim incurred. We were forced to choose some number without having an basis for establishing the magnitude. I still don’t know if we were too high or too low.

If you weren't allowed to see medical bills and such, then you were probably tasked with determining other kinds of damages (e.g. emotional distress) that are totally unrelated to those.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#158

Apropos of anything else, J&J's handling of this has been despicable. Creating an entity specifically to pick up all of the related liabilities, picking up those liabilities and then (exact count may be wrong, but it's very close) literally filing for bankruptcy within the space of three days. The Texas two-step, as it's called. > In 2021, the company spun off its liabilities into a new entity called LTL Management u…

This is the top-voted comment but as many of the other replies have pointed out, it's totally wrong outrage-bait. J&J, the parent company, is still ultimately liable for the full amount. The bankruptcy process just allows the courts to manage all of the claims together under the authority of one judge, instead of having different courts in every state issue incompatible damages awards in a race to judgment.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#160
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then it's J&J as a whole that should go bankrupt, no a shell company designed for damage-control purposes…

That’s all well and good until you discover that you were affected by something else they did but you can’t sue them any more because they went bust servicing the talc powder claims.

Okay. There is zero chance that the corporate lawyers are doing this to ensure that the next people killed by J&J can collect.

“We can’t pay out for these deaths because then we will be out of money to pay out for the other deaths.”

This is only a compelling argument if J&J agrees to dissolve their entire company and work with the courts to distribute 100% of their wealth to aggrieved parties. Let’s see how much they cooperate with that.

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